Sorry, but I couldn’t help myself in posting (***There was an article linked here, but I decided to remove it, primarily because of the other content on the site and the poor title choice of the article***).
I want to point out that I don’t endorse this particular church, or their broader beliefs. However, I thought this article was pretty good and to the point. I think too many times people think they need to “help God out” by adding in some rules that he didn’t actually give us.
In reality, God gave us all the info we needed, and we don’t need to forget the condemnation Jesus brought against the Pharisees for “teaching as doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 15:9).
***EDIT***
Well, it’s October 4, about 5 months since I wrote this article. If you decide to read the comments, you can see that a lot has been discussed. I thought I’d write a follow-up in here, just in case someone reads this, but doesn’t take the time to read every comment.
If you fall into that group and skim through this thread without a thorough reading, please don’t rush to any conclusions about those who have posted. Several of us adjusted our responses somewhat by the end of the discussion. I, for one, came away from it with a more conservative view than the one I started with. In hindsight, I wish I had approached this topic in a better manner. My initial post here, and some of my first comments were way too casual and did not use enough scripture.
So if you decide to read through some of this thread, let me again ask that you not jump to any conclusions about the people who posted on here or their positions, unless you are willing to carefully read the entire discussion. I’ve decided to leave the post on here, in case it is helpful to someone at some point. I’ve tried to discourage any further comments on this thread, but if you feel the need to add something you can. I may or may not approve it.
Thanks.
Finding Truth 
Hi,
This whole “Christians don’t drink’ seems to be a very American thing. In Europe, it’s just a non-issue.
Jon
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“Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we prohibit
and abolish women? The sun, moon and the stars have been
worshipped; shall we pluck them from the sky?” Martin Luther.
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Great article, thanks for the link. Its so amazing to me how drinking is demonized by those in the church yet is something that we have scriptural evidence that Jesus did. After all, why would they call him a drunkard if he had never drank? Anyhow there is a lot of scripture that can be used to back up that alcohol by itself is not sinful. It does bother me that when those in the church choose to voice this opinon they are all but shunned.
We don’t need to give off even a hint of immorality, but to me that doesn’t mean not drinking. It does mean not getting buzzed at the local bar. I have had a drink with my meal in at a business diner and had it lead to biblical discussion. This was a good thing and at least opened someone’s mind to the fact that they ought to check out just what the bible says and not take other’s word for it.
Alcohol can be abused by some people, some have a harder time keeping it in moderation that others. I think we are all challenged to know our own weakness and act accordingly.
Personally nothing goes better with good Mexican food than a nice Margerita or Corna. I love a Coors Light or Coke and Jim Beam with my BBQ. And nothing quenches the fire of Hot wings like a cold beer (again I like Coors light). That’s about all the food that I can think of off my head that is really accented by an alcoholic drink.
I think we need more discussion on this issue. The status quo won’t change until we do, and people will continue until someone ‘finds and proclaims the truth’ 😉
My name’s Matt, I’m a Christian, and I drink. Will you join me?
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Matt: While I do not believe that someone who takes a drink has committed a sin in and of itself, I do think there is sufficient scripture to indicate that it is the better part of judgement to abstain from the practice. Banquetings and revellings are condemned in the new teastament, which indicates that social drinking and partying is sinful. We are also told to abstain from the very appearance of evil which means we should consider the effects of our actions on others. Most people I know, whether religious or not, consider drinking a worldly vice. This in and of itself is enough to keep a christian from drinking. Our influence is easily damaged and hard to repair. There are plenty of other beverages to choose from so there is no real need to use an alcoholic beverage with a meal. While I agree passages have been misused on this subject to condemn anyone who has ever taken a drink for any reason, drunkenness is certainly condemned and we must therefore be very careful in this area and not use our liberty as an occasion to sin, but consider one another and provoke to love and good works. The bottom line is that while I don’t believe the bible condemns one who takes a drink for medicinal purposes or who has it with a meal when nothing else is available, I do believe it should be avoided if at all possible so as not to hurt our influence or give cause for one to accuse us of riotous behavior.
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Mr. O,
Seems like we agree on the first point that a drink in and of itself isn’t a sin, that’s a good starting point. Lets move on to the idea that all drinking be it social, private or whatever should be avoided by the Christian. We are told to be immitators of Christ. We know that He commited no sin. Then why should we avoid something He did. He was falsely chastized by the religous elite for drinking and eating with sinners. What more could this mean or imply that He was socially drinking with the outcast of society? Also His first miricale turning the water into “new wine” for a wedding party? How can bananqueting be wrong if that’s just what Jesus was doing at the begining of His ministry? I can’t see Jesus making wine for people to drink if it wasn’t ok, how could he take part in their sin?
We know that letting anything control us other than God is wrong. Being drunk is wrong no question about it. But didn’t Paul paint a pretty good picture that your conscience should be your guide, similar to meat offered to idols?
You stated that “I do believe it should be avoided if at all possible so as not to hurt our influence…” IMO the reason that it could hurt our infuence is because it has been incorrectly preached for so long that any alcohol is a sin. The worldy even think that the bible teaches that. This is why we must confront the wrong teachers and try to teach those that do not know what the bible actually says on the matter. The few chances I have had to talk to non Christians about this came out of them seeing me with a drink.
Please forgive my grammer and spelling as it is early and the Lazy Side is strong in the morning. Also thank you for your comments, I’d like to continue the discussion as you don’t here many commenting on this issue.
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Interesting comments…
I think I sit somewhere between these last two points. When people bring up the idea of foul language, and how do we know which words we shouldn’t say, I always look at society. We know which words, phrases, or gestures are inappropriate in our society, and we should live accordingly.
I think drinking fits into this category. While I agree with Matt that there shouldn’t be such a stigma about this practice, there unfortunately still is among most religious people in our country, or at least in the South. As you can see from some of the comments above, other countries don’t view drinking alcohol in the same way that some Americans do.
But since many of the people we come into contact with here do have an issue with it, I think we have to be careful of our influence. Though I would defend a Christian’s right to drink, I still think it is wiser to abstain, or at least to be careful with doing it in public. I don’t believe it’s wrong to do so, but I think it can be a stumbling block for others.
Typically, there are less obtrusive and offensive ways to discuss the topic than to let our actions be an icebreaker. I think we have to be very careful of that, considering passages like Rom 14 and 1 Cor 8.
Great discussion though…
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Matt, I agree that we are to be imitators of Christ, but we cnnot prove that Christ did drink intoxicating beverages any more than we can prove He didn’t. The same greek word is typically used for fermented and unfermented grape juice. Therefore, I don’t think we can be dogmatic either way based on the majority of the scripture in the new testament. However, Galations 5 condemns “revellings and such like” which would certainly seem to include the typical bar or party scene. While I personally believe that a glass of wine with a meal is ok, I don’t drink one. Paul told the Romans that there was nothing wrong with eating meat, but if it was a problem for others then he wouldn’t ever eat anymore meat. I think we have to view drinking the same way. Yes, there should be dialog about the subject as we all strive to understand it properly, but since it is such a volatile issue with such strong feelings, we should not do anything that would harm our influence or cause someone else to stumble. Further, there are a lot of older men in the Church that have studied this issue a long time that I have a lot of respect for that believe any drinking would be wrong. This too makes me cautious, as someone with wisdom and a lot of years of study may understand something more clearly than I. Also, I can live without drinking. I have many choices of beverage available to me, so there is no need to have an alcoholic beverage with my meal. What is the benefit in engaging in something that can do so much potential harm to me or to others, both physically and spiritually, if it is not necessary?
There is another passage in the new testament that condemns banqueting, which I understand to be a drinking party, but I will have to get back to you on that, because I can’t recall it right now. Also, Proverbs 23 talks about lingering long at wine and the dangers of it. Doesn’t common sense tell us that it would be best to avoid drinking?
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I will say this, however; those who believe one drink is wrong, should also realize that not everyone views it that way. So if they see a fellow Christian drinking alcohol, I think it’s also their responsibility to not judge so harshy – to still think the best of them. After all, we are told to “believe all things.”
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Nate: Iwould agree that we should not jump to conclusions, but as Paul told Timothy, “let no man dispise thy youth”, so we are to live above reproach as much as possible. It is our responsibility to live in such a way as to positively influence others. Something might not be a sin, but it doesn’t mean we should do it. Even though someone might be mistaken in their view of this subject, common sense tells us that they are going to have a negative impression of us if they see us drinking alcohol. How are we positively influencing anyone through the practice of imbibing? While I don’t think I can condemn someone for taking a drink, neither can I encourage someone to do it. It is at best a questionalble practice, and unless taken for medicinal purposes (which would be a very small amount) it really accomplishes no purpose other than self gratification. What is the point? Do you really want to chance encouraging someone to do something that so many people have a problem with controlling? It is somewhat like the tounge. James says “let your yea be yea and your nay be nay lest you fall into condemnation” in the 5th chapter. Extraneous speech is to be avoided so that you don’t accidentally say something wrong. How does drinking promote spirituality? Does it bring you closer to Christ? The dangers seem to outweigh the benefits.
Understand, I’m not saying that anyone who takes a drink has necessarily sinned. What I am saying is that it is at best poor judgement to do so when there are so many other things we can choose to drink.
We can talk about this more when we see each other if you like, but I think I would be very cautious about doing anything to lend approval or encouragement to drinking alcohol.
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No, I agree with you. As you eluded to, during Biblical times, alcoholic drinks were often consumed because there was no other choice – they couldn’t keep fruit juice from fermenting, water was sometimes polluted or scarce, and fresh milk wasn’t always available.
That’s much different than today’s culture. While some people drink it purely for the flavor, it’s often used in order to achieve a “buzz” or just get flat out drunk.
So I agree with your argument: while we may have the liberty to do it, it might be in everyone’s best interest to forgo that freedom.
I just wish people would approach it from that standpoint instead of creating “laws” that aren’t really there. That’s just as dangerous as the abuse of alcohol.
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I totally agree with you. Twisting the scripture is no way to prove something. In fact, it’s not just dangerous, but it is wrong.
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I won’t belabor this point, but after a great discussion with Josh the other night I am now more convinced than ever that “one drink” can be condemned by a process of elimination.
When Paul tells the Thessalonians to “abstain from every appearance of evil” is he not telling them that practices which can not be supported wholeheartedly CAN be condemned? James and Paul both speak of the sin of doubt. Matt you seem to have no doubt about this subject, but you have provided little scriptural support.
Mr. Owens clearly expresses doubt, and well he should, because his moral standard is Romans 14 where Paul teaches that is is better not to do something that might be OK for the sake of our brother’s conscience or our own for that matter. Nathan used this expression to summarize his position, “…I still think it is wiser to abstain…” Nathan, you are quoting 1 Thess. 5:22.
If one does not abstain from perceived evil or worldly practices they destroy their influence for Christ which is clearly sin. The word worldliness covers a vast multitude of practices that do not need to be explicitly condemned to put one’s soul in danger. You know this as you cited the example of profanity,
“We know which words, phrases, or gestures are inappropriate in our society, and we should live accordingly.”
Great point. Who better to define worldliness than the world. Consider also the example of smoking and ask yourself if you would feel comfortable holding a beer or cigarette in your hand at the return of Christ? Could you offer one of these worldly vices to our LORD if He graced your home?
Side note: Was the Passover wine alcoholic? Absolutely not! It would not have been properly prepared as yeast is required to cause fermentation and yeast is also strictly forbidden during the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
Notice that wise men treated drinking wine like Jesus treated adultery. In Prov. 23:29-35, the writer’s conclusion was not – drink in moderation. His conclusion was not even that drunkenness was a sin. In verse 31 the writer concludes that one ought not even LOOK at wine as it appears red and alluring in the cup. Do you suppose he is hinting at the temptation you may experience to take a drink?
In response to the very first comment, who cares what they do in any country on earth? We ought to be interested in what they will be doing in Heaven.
I am only even responding to this for the love that I have for you, Nathan, and your brother Josh. I hope that you know that, and I hope that will see in this issue that when something is dangerous it is sin. That is the position that you would take on any other religious issue.
Mr. Owens your comments were very wise and I hope that I supported the good arguments that you made.
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Tadd,
I appreciate your comments on this subject. As I have talked with Josh, I don’t think there is any disagreement with what you are saying. I think what causes Josh some unease is when passages are used incorrectly to prove what you are stating. It may require yeast to hasten the fermentation process, but natural grape juice will naturally ferment over time if left unsealed or unrefreigerated. There have been many congregations in this country which used homemade wine as the element in the Lord’s Supper in years past as they had no way to preservr grape juice. I do not believe this was sinful, but expedient. I do not see the necessity if doing that today, but I don’t think I could call it sinful. Poor judgement maybe, but not sinful. To assume that every time the word wine is used assumes that it is only grape juice doesn’t seem to fit the context of all the passages that deal with it, yet that is often what is claimed in sermons and in discussions. This is much like the argument that denominations make about numerous issurs– it just isn’t logical.
Now I am not advocating drinking. I think plenty of passages indicate that a Christian has no business taking a drink. However, I think (and I believe what Josh is trying to say) is that we have got to be careful about condemning “one drink” as being a sin. I think it depends on the situation. For example, social srinking would be wrong. I Peter 4 condemns revellings, banquetings, AND SUCH LIKE”. However medicinal use seems to be allowed as Paul told Timothy to take some for that purpose.
I know this is an emotional subject, and there are many who may disagree with my view on this. I think the real issue is in saying what the bible says and not adding to or taking from it.
I would repeat, I don’t think a Christian should take a drink in our circumstances today, because of influence and the fact that there is no need for it.
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I don’t really care about the technical or scientific arguments that might be made because drinking is worldly. You admit that when you continually assert that you don’t think a Christian should partake, or that you wouldn’t partake yourself. You hesitate to be associated with drinking because you know that it would jeopardize your sanctity and your “set-apartness” If it is worldly, it is condemnable. James 1:27 and innumerable passages condemn being like the world.
Look at what you said: “I think plenty of passages indicate that a Christian has no business taking a drink.” A drink, is singular. You are condemning one drink. Why can’t I? And the next person you show me who uses alcohol as medicine will be the first. I can’t worry about a time when alcohol might have been used in such a way. I have to worry about now and if scriptural logic says you shouldn’t do a thing then it is SINFUL to do it.
You are continually referring to passages that defeat your logic. When Gal. 5:21 says, “and such like,” that says to me that Paul didn’t complete his list. Was that phrase not included to imply that we should condemn all similar practices? Is this not a fair interpretation? This is what you would say it means in every other moral debate.
Tell me whether or not you believe drinking is worldly.
Tell me which passage I used incorrectly.
Tell me why the Proverb writer said not to look upon the wine in the cup.
Tell me how many people are going to be in Heaven because of poor judgment.
Why do you stumble to condemn one drink? Would you not condemn one date with another man’s wife so long as they did not fornicate? After all, dating is not condemned, only lust and fornication. How about one kiss? How about one marijuana cigarette? After all, it has proven medicinal value. When you chldren first began to go out with friends was your advice, “Don’t drink, TOO MUCH!”
If you can’t draw the line at one drink, where can you? People need to know because souls are at stake.
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Sorry, I’ve been away for awhile, and am only just now able to comment.
Tadd, I think you have some good points, but I’m afraid that for us to condemn even one drink treads perilously close to the mistakes that the Pharisees were making in the first century. In their effort to keep people from breaking God’s laws, they set fences around them. While that’s not necessarily a bad thing in itself, the problem was that they began to teach those extra rules with the same level of importance as the laws God had given them.
If we plan to teach people that any level of alcohol is wrong, then NyQuil needs to be on that list as well. I understand your reluctance to look at scientific and historical arguments, since we only need the Bible to teach us what’s proper. But in some instances, I think scientific and historical data can help us understand what we read in the Bible.
For instance, some passages tell us not to take wine, while others (like the ones Dad mentioned) tell us we can. Understanding more about the fermenting process and the preserving abilities available at the time can help us greatly understand in which cases wine is ok, and when it’s not.
Just because the Bible condemns an excess doesn’t mean that that element has no value at all. We’re told that gluttony is sinful, but we obviously can’t condemn one bite of food. We know that murder is wrong, but that doesn’t mean owning a gun is.
My only point is that it’s very dangerous for us to condemn a particular practice that the Bible doesn’t actually condemn. When I read my Bible, I’ve only seen where drunkenness is condemned. Even though it might be wise to abstain from alcohol completely, I don’t believe we can tell people that any drink at all is wrong.
Also, I think that using “abstain from every appearance of evil” as a “catch-all” is also dangerous. Some people think that playing cards is too closely associated with gambling. Does that mean no one should ever play Uno? Romans 14 (and 1 Cor 8-10) are there to help us see when our freedoms should be forsaken for someone else’s benefit.
Paul didn’t teach them that they could never eat meat again – but they certainly weren’t to do it in the presence of one who thought it was wrong. That would have caused them to stumble. And though it’s seldom talked about, don’t forget that drinking wine is another of the issues Paul deals with in Romans 14. If it’s alcoholic wine, why doesn’t he just condemn it outright? And if it’s just grape juice, why should they be careful of causing someone else to stumble?
I just don’t think that we can logically argue the Bible teaches all drinking is wrong.
Also, when I was growing up, my parents always encouraged us to never drink at all. But they didn’t try to prove that the Bible taught that. They always used the same arguments that you saw Dad use earlier.
By the way, I’m glad you’ve weighed in on this — look forward to hearing more from you!
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Nathan,
If you want to defeat my arguments then you need to address them. And you need to stop condemning the “wisdom of drinking” in all your posts and then backpeddling and saying, “hey, but I can’t say it’s a sin.” Not one person has taken on the issue of whether or not drinking is worldly, nor have they addressed the issue of whether or not worldliness is sin.
If you do not think that drinking is worldly then admit it publicly because that is the only way that you can avoid contradicting yourself. If you don’t think that drinking is worldly then I will stop debating this issue with you.
I’m also a little confused. I thought we were talking about alcoholic beverages. I never denied the possibility of a medicinal value in alcohol, but here is where we need to make a moral judgment. Maybe I assume too much, but I believe most people today with a stomach ache reach for Pepto, not wine or a beer. In fact, one sure way to be labeled as an alcoholic would be to say, “Oh, I’m drinking this beer for my stomach ache.” Nyquil and wine is not a apples to apples comparison, and you threw Nyquil out there like it was such a brilliant argument. It would be if medicines were never abused, but you and I both know better. I also find it interesting that you miss some obvious points in the exchange between Paul and Timothy in 1 Tim. 5:23. Timothy was obviously choosing to abstain from wine. Why? I mean, could we say that Paul knew of Timothy’s need better than Timothy? Paul’s recommendation was also very restrictive. Unless you and I have a stomach problem or often infirmities we can not use that passage to support the use of alcohol in our lives.
By the way, if using 1 Thess. 5:13 as a catch-all is so dangerous then tell me how you use it. I know that your Dad has already explained that he uses the expression “and such like” to condemn social drinking although the Bible does not specifically condemn it. Help me apply those passages better if I am using them incorrectly.
Your example of UNO doesn’t really count because it is out of context. Can you point to one example of somebody using UNO as an outlet for gambling? Variations of Poker and Blackjack are used all the time to promote gambling and as such, I could support condemning them on the grounds of worldliness.
The use of food is required to sustain our lives. Wine is not. Can you fire a gun without beginning the process of murder? Can you drink one drink without beginning the process of intoxication?
Your problem is the same as the Corinthians. You have knowledge, but Paul’s conclusion in 1 Cor. 8-10 was not that it was OK for those who understood the difference between idols and the True God to partake in the foods used in sacrifices of idols. Notice chapter 10 verses 12 – 20. Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. Verse 14, flee from idolotry. Why? They knew the difference? Verse 20 indicates that they assumed because they knew the difference then they were free to eat of those things, but Paul assures them that is not the case. Romans 14 is dealing with the same issue. Everything mentioned before meat and wine referred to former religious practices. It would be out of context to assume that Paul was referring to just any old meal, and even if he is not the only way to use that passage to support drinking is to say with full conviction that drinking is not worldly.
And I hate to say this, but when you refer to the parents encouraging you not to drink at all you only reinforce the contradiction of your position. If that is true then they were being just as Pharaisaic as I am.
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Tadd,
Truly there is wisdom in some of what you say. However, poor judgement is not the same as sin. I believe it is poor judgement for a christian to be a police officer. Why? Because it is often shift work, which would cause one to miss worship on occasions. It also opens the possibility that one might have to use deadly force, which is not something a christian should engage in. Is being a police officer sin? Not in and of itself. See my point? I don’t know where the bible expressly condemns one drink. Is it wise? No, and additionally I believe our influence would be damaged thru the consumption of alcohol in a social setting. I don’t think anyone in this discussion is condoning drinking. What I am saying is that if we are going to speak where the bible speaks, then we must condemn drunkenness. The arguments that are normally made that “if it takes 10 drinks to get one drunk, and you have one drink then you are a 10th of the way drunk, so it is sin”, would have to be applied to gluttony also if we are going to be consistant. Is it pharaseeacal to say drunkeness is a sin, drinking parties are a sin, and stop there? Is it wrong to point out where poor judgement is a dangerous thing?
Again, I am not advocating anyone taking a drink. There are instances (although rare) where someone with stomach trouble is advised by a doctor to take a small drink of wine with an evening meal in order to help digestion. How is this unlike Paul telling Timothy to do the same thing? If one drink=sin, then paul told Timothy to sin, which is certainly out of character for Paul. If it was not sinful for Timothy to use a drink for medicinal purposes, then we can’t say that any drink of alcohol is sin.
The real argument is not over whether or not a Christian should drink, rather the passages and arguments used to condemn drinking. No rational Christian is going to advise anyone to drink, it is at best poor judgement, and there is no reason for us to use alcohol today (unless in a medicinal form). Let’s just all make sure that we look honestly at what the new testament has to say on this and all other issues.
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Tadd,
One other point. Not everything associated with the world is sin. Many things in and of themselves would be wholesome activities, but are made sin in how they are used. There have been many in past years who condemned any card playing as sinful, because it is worldly. Movies and TV have been condemned for the same reason. Higher education is condemned by some for the same reasons. I submit to you that things of the world aren’t necessarily sinful, and that poor judgement and sin are not the same thing. As far as how many won’t get to heaven because of poor judgement, let me say this: All who don’t make it to heaven will have made a poor choice in not obeying the gospel, but I believe ther are poor decisions we make all the time that don’t necessarily affect our salvation. As we mature, hopefully we make better judgements, but I don’t think poor judgement in and of itself is a sin.
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My final post on the subject.
My attack on poor judgment was in the way that you used it to explain the use of alcohol in observance of the Lord’s Supper. I questioned it because to imply something is spiritually “poor judgment” gives me the impression that one would either have to correct the practice or face the possibility of judgment from God.
I don’t think that the example of a police officer makes a parallel and reinforcing argument for drinking. If someone disagrees, by all means, respond.
The only passage that you can present that even makes alcohol use a possibility is 1 Tim. 5:23 and there are stipulations that one would have to meet. However, no argument beyond the argument of worldliness is necessary because worldliness is sin – unless we do not agree drinking is worldly. No one has answered that question yet. Strange. I ask about the worldliness of alcohol and I get examples of card playing, movies, television and even higher education, but no stand on which kingdom (darkness or light) one drink would fit into.
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Tadd,
I guess I thought that your worldliness question had been answered. But let me try to explain it further:
Is drinking alcohol worldly? I guess it depends on how you’re looking at worldliness. Are you saying that anything associated with the world is wrong? Football is worldly, so is it wrong? If it were to become someone’s “idol”, then it would be wrong, but if it’s kept in the proper place, it’s fine.
I think that when the Bible says worldliness is a sin, it’s not necessarily condemning a particular activity as much as it’s condemning a mindset. When we focus on the world or the things in the world, we’re guilty of worldliness. Drinking would be wrong in that context, but that doesn’t necessarily make it wrong in and of itself.
My whole point is that I can’t draw lines for anyone that God hasn’t drawn. I can limit myself and my family from certain things all I want, but I have no right to do that to anyone else. For instance, when we go out to eat, I don’t let my kids wander around the restaurant. They have to stay in their seats the whole time we’re there. Some of my friends don’t hold their kids to those stipulations and that’s fine. I can’t hold them to it either. No matter how much it might irritate me, I can’t try to hold them to my personal conviction.
If you can find a passage that says any consumption of alcohol is wrong, I’ll happily change my stance, but I’ve never seen such a passage. And if you continue to hold to worldliness as a “blank check,” then you can condemn pretty much anything you want — that’s why I think you have to be very careful with that argument.
And going back to Romans 14 and 1 Cor 8-10, Paul is not telling them that is wrong to partake of these things. Look at vs 23 thru the end of the chapter in 1 Cor 10. Paul tells them that if they’re invited to someone’s house, not to ask questions about the meat they’re served (if they weren’t to partake of it at all, wouldn’t they have needed to ask about it?). Instead, he tells them to only abstain if the host tells them this meat was offered to idols. Why? Not because of themselves (which leads me to conclude that there’s nothing wrong with eating it), but because of the conscience of the one who told them. Well, why would that matter? Obviously, if the host tells them that, he thinks there’s something important about that fact — perhaps he thinks his guests should feel honored. Either way, he thinks the fact that it was offered to idols makes it special, and that’s why the Christian shouldn’t partake of it.
Once again, the things spoken about in those chapters were not flat-out condemned. They were spoken of as things that we have liberty in. However, if those things are going to offend someone, or cause them to stumble, then the stronger Christian is told to give up his liberty in that instance.
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Tadd, the argument about a police officer was not intended to prove dinking is ok, but to point out that poor judgement is not necessarily a sin. I’m sorry if you thought I was trying to prove drinking is ok, that is not what I am trying to do. I gladly submit that social drinking (ie drinking parties) are condemned. I also submit that drunkeness is a sin. I believe the bible teaches this. All I am saying, is that we should exercise care when condemning anything. I agree, that we should avoid anything that would cause us or others to sin. I think we can show by the scriptures that we should avoid alcohol. However, that is different from saying someone who was traveling in Italy and had a meal with a glass of wine to drink with it has sinned and will go to hell unless they repent. It is not something I would choose to do unless I had no other choice, then I might view it as David eating the shewbread. Of course, it is not about what I would do, it is about what God has said. He has said drunkeness is a sin. It would certainly be wise to avoid anything that might cause us to be drunk. I’m just not sure I can condemn someone for something when I can’t find a passage to support the condemnation.
I’m not trying to be argumentative, I think we would both agree that we won’t be taking a drink, I just want you to understand where I’m coming from. I’m not trying to be rebellious or difficult, I’m just pleading for care in use of the scriptures. Am I misusing them? Point out which ones and I will gladly study over them and see if I can understand them more clearly. Sorry if I’ve offended you.
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This is the first time I,ve ever looked at this page. I have read all the cpmments and think that my Dad related my stance on the subject accurately.
My first point is directed toward Matt. Your point was well thought out, but I would be wary of drinking around others. While in the cases you mentioned it lead to questions and Bible study, there might very well have been those who saw and did not ask thinking you to be a hyprocrit- even if there conception was false. Paul said that it was ok to pay a preacher but he would not accept it. Sometimes advocating something you do can give the impression of an agenda, while making a point about something you have no stake in seems sincere.
Now to something else…
Tad, is adding to the Bible wrong? a sin? Should we speak where the Bible speaks and remain silent where it it is silent?
Are we to Proove all things?
Is it right or acceptable to help God? does he need our help?
Look up the greek words and their definisions for revelings and banquetings. I looked them up from only three different sources, and they were all the same. Both had to do with social drinking, except they both involved not only drunkeness but other lude behaviors as well.
While I can agree with you that I cant take a drink without doubt, I cannot see where you can prove anything but drunkeness is condemned.
I wonder about the passage in Prov 23 that has been mentioned. Solomon did say to not even look at the red wine as it turns in its cup, I’m not totally sure what that’s talking about. It may very well be refering to alcohol of any type. What gets me about it is what Solomon writes about wine in Prov 31: 1-9. He tells princes to stay away from it because they’ll forget the law, but then writes, give wine to the man with a heavy heart that he might forget his poverty and griefe.
I believe that God has said what he wanted to say the way he wanted it said. God clearly tells us that drunkeness, adultry, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviosness, idolitary… (Gal 5), are sins. We also see Jesus condemning the pharisees for binding where God has not, as Nate pointed out.
We hear it said often that if something is right to do then there’s a right way to do it. If you want to speak out against drinking I’ll do it with you, as I have on my own numerous times, but I’ll do it the way the Bible has. No one that believes in the Bible can argue against it.
Putting everything into two kingdoms of light and dark is a good practice and a strong point. You said to me the other night if something wasn’t worldly then it is spiritual. When looked at like that I think everyone should agree that drinking is wrong, along with soda ( the mormons believe it to be worldly), sports, secular music, games, and everything that cant be said to be spiritual or life sustaining, including binding where our Lord has not.
Paul tells us to speak the same things, and to prove all things, studying to show ourselves approved. We can only speak the same things by proving our stances by what we’ve studied from our bibles. How can you disagree with what has been said?
If you show us a verse that states anything to the affect hat a drink is sin, then I’ll gladly preach that myself, as I do not like to be around it or those drinking.
to close I just want to add a thought. where Jesus turned water into wine, it is the same Greek word for wine as it is mentioned in Eph 5:18 and I tim 3: 8. If God wanted us to stay away from it period, why did he use that word instead of a word that meant grape juice? He made the distiction elsewhere, why not here?
Also, If it were a sin then shouldn’t we take opportunity to speak out against it and separate ourselves from it? When they accused Peter of being drunk on the day of Penticost he simply replyed by saying it was too early, not that drinking is a sin.
There is no appearance of evil in abstaining from drinking, just as there is no appearence of evil saying bible things in bible ways.
i cant spell
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consider this,
dating leads to lust and sexual immorallity. it is not needed to marry is this also sin because it leads to it?
I can leave my house and turn onto HWY 90. Does that mean I’m driving to Mcdonalds because it leads there? no, I can stop well before I get there. Just because there is a path does not mean it has to be taken all the way.
Belief leads to salvation, so is one saved if he stops there? No, only when he continues to the end.
Drinking leads to drunkeness, yes. That is a reason why some consider it foolish and better avoided. drinking , however , is not always drunk nor is it always taken that far. Drinking leads to drunkeness when taken in excess, when taken to the end of its path.
I also love you and intend only to be biblically correct.
How can anyone without a bit of doubt say that the bible says that a drink is a sin? What scripture can they point to?
the “such like” phrase is, in my opinion, refering to drugs and what have you (in relation to drunkeness, revellings and banquetings). A drink with a meal is a far cry from drunken and riotous behavior.
I am not prepared nor do I think any of us is qualified to stand judge on what people do. the judgements we do make should come from sound scripture, from what we can prove. I can prove that being drunk is wrong. I can prove that alcohol can be an appearence of evil and that it can a stumbling block. What do I have to prove that a drink ( not drunk) is sin? where’s the authority?
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I hope that everyone can see the importance of this issue. I mean, I taught my position publicly at Myrtle Grove Sunday and I plan to teach the same lesson on the coming Lord’s Day at Oak Grove.
Since you question the authority of my position I suggest we debate the subject publicly. I’m sure that the elders at Oak Grove or East Hill would be willing to provide a forum and if you’d like we could debate where you attend as well. I’m teaching it publicly, and like it or not, now you have as well. If you’re willing to defend your position before fellow Christians let me know and we can talk about some propositions.
Here is my contact info:
Home # (XXX) XXX-XXXX
Cell # (XXX) XXX-XXXX
*** I edited this out just so none of it gets abused. However, if anyone would like Tadd’s information, and if Tadd gives me the ok, I’ll be happy to provide it.
Tadd, I can see the email addresses for everyone that posts on here. So if someone’s interested in contacting you directly, I’ll let you know and we can go from there. It’s probably a little safter that way.
Thanks,
Nate
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Tad,
I hate to say this, but it really looks like you are more interested in winning a debate than talking about what the Bible teaches. Remember we are here to edify one another, not knock each other down.
In Christian love.
-Matt
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