Agnosticism, Atheism, Bible Study, Christianity, Faith, God, Morality, Religion, Truth

Letter to Kathy (the Bible Has Problems)

Dear Kathy,

Since you graciously agreed (in our recent conversation) to let me present you with some examples of the Bible’s problems, I decided to do it in this way so it would have its own comment thread. As I’ve said, when I was a Christian, one strike against the Bible was not enough to shake my faith — maybe it only seemed problematic, maybe there was an explanation we hadn’t uncovered yet, maybe the historical accounts were wrong, etc. But as the problems began to mount up, I reached a point where I could no longer deny the fact that the Bible had actual errors.

A couple of suggestions before we begin. Try to be as open-minded about this as possible. As you go through these examples, ask yourself if God would allow such problems to exist in a message that he wanted all people to accept and believe? According to the Bible, whenever God sent someone a message, whether it was Pharaoh or Gideon or Nebuchadnezzar or Paul, they had no question whom it was from. They didn’t always follow it, as we see with people like Pharaoh and Solomon, but they didn’t question the source of the message or what it stated. So why would God operate differently today? Why would he want us to be so confused about his message that we’re able to question whether or not it’s really from him?

Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you come to the conclusion that the Bible has actual problems, that doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. There are a number of Christians who don’t believe in inerrancy. And even if you lose faith in the Christian god, that still doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. A number of people, including several of our founding fathers, were deists. I have a lot of sympathy for that view and plan to do a post on it soon.

Some of the items listed here will have links that provide additional information, especially when the issue is too detailed to list here. I hope that you’ll check out those links, since some of them are quite significant points. And regardless of how this article strikes you, I hope it will help serve as a great springboard to launch you into your own research.

Some of the Problems

Creation
The creation accounts in Genesis do not match what we’ve learned through science. This isn’t shocking news, but it bears looking into. Evolution and the Big Bang Theory had nothing to do with my deconversion, but I’ve learned more about both since leaving Christianity. It’s shocking how much misinformation I had been operating under. Not to say that all Christians are that way — that was simply my experience. But the evidence for both evolution and the Big Bang are far more substantial than I had ever realized. Two good resources for learning more about these issues are the following (though I’d also recommend checking out the recent Cosmos series, as well as some of the PBS NOVA specials):
http://jerichobrisance.com/2014/02/18/marcos-daddy-and-the-beginning-of-life-on-earth/
http://talkorigins.org/

Another problem with the creation accounts is that Genesis 1 says that plants and trees were made on the 3rd day, while man was made on the 6th. But Genesis 2:5-9 says that man was created before there were any plants or trees in the land. Also, the 1st chapter says that man was created after all the animals, but the 2nd chapter implies that it was the other way around. It seems strange that such discrepancies would exist only a chapter apart, but there are a number of textual clues that suggest the first 5 books of the Bible were assembled over a long period of time from various writings written by a number of different people. Many scholars believe that Genesis 1 and 2 represent two separate versions of the creation story that were both included because the compilers didn’t know which was more accurate. Whatever the reason, there’s no question that the differences exist and are hard to explain.

10 Plagues
During the 10 plagues, God afflicts all of Egypt’s livestock with a disease (Ex 9:1-7), and it specifies that it would affect the “horses, the donkeys, the camels, the herds, and the flocks.” We’re told that all of Egypt’s livestock died. But the later plague of boils was said to affect both man and beast (verse 10 of chapter 9). Maybe it meant non-livestock animals. But Ex 11:5 says that the death of the firstborn would also affect Egypt’s cattle, and in Exodus 14, Pharaoh pursues the Israelites with horses.

Hares Chew the Cud
Leviticus 11:6 tells us that hares chew the cud. They do not. Animals that chew the cud are called ruminants. When they eat plant matter, it goes to their first stomach to soften, and then it’s regurgitated to their mouth. They spend time re-chewing it, and then it is swallowed and fully digested. Ruminants (cows, sheep, goats, etc.) are recognizable because their chewing of the cud is very obvious. Hares (rabbits) don’t chew the cud; however, their mouths do move frequently, so it’s possible to see why some people may have assumed that they do chew the cud. Of course, God would know they didn’t, and this is why the passage is problematic. You can read more about this here.

Arphaxad
In the genealogy given in Genesis 11:10-12, we see that Noah fathered Shem and Shem fathered Arphaxad. At the age of 35, Arphaxad fathered Shelah. This information is confirmed in 1 Chron 1:18. But Luke 3:35-36 tells us that Arphaxad’s son was Cainan, and he was the father of Shelah.

Where does Luke get this information? It disagrees with the Old Testament, so who should we believe? Some have suggested that Genesis and 1 Chronicles simply left out Cainan for some reason. But why would they do that? To further complicate it, how could Cainan have fit in there? Genesis tells us that Arphaxad was 35 when he fathered Shelah. Does it really seem likely that Arphaxad became a grandfather by 35, especially when you consider the extreme old ages that people lived to at that time?

Another explanation is that some copyist messed up when copying Luke and Cainan is just a mistake. But this is not much better. First of all, the error would have needed to occur early for it to be in all our copies of Luke. Secondly, are we really comfortable saying that we have the inspired word of our creator, but it got messed up by some guy who wasn’t paying close attention? To me, that doesn’t lend a lot of credence to the idea of inspiration or inerrancy.

Instead, the most likely explanation is that Luke made a mistake. This, of course, would indicate that he was not inspired.

Problems in the Book of Daniel
In Daniel 5, the writer refers to Belshazzar as the son of Nebuchadnezzar 7 different times. Yet we know from multiple contemporary sources that Belshazzar’s father was Nabonidus, who was not related to Nebuchadnezzar. The same chapter says that Darius the Mede took over Babylon, but this person does not seem to have ever existed. Daniel says that he was the son of Ahaseurus, and in mentioning this, the author of Daniel indicates that he was thinking of a later ruler — the persian emperor Darius the Great, whose son was Ahaseurus. This post in particular goes into the problems surrounding the 5th chapter, but if you’d like to learn about the problems in the rest of the book, you can access each article in the series here.

Jairus’s Daughter
In Mark 5:23, Jairus finds Jesus and says that his daughter is at the point of death. While they’re on their way to the house, some of his servants find them on the way and say that she has died and there’s no point in troubling Jesus further.

However, in Matthew 9:18, Jairus already knows that his daughter has died, but tells Jesus that if he’ll lay his hands on her, she’ll live. This may seem like a minor difference, but honestly, there’s only one scenario that could be true. Either the girl was already dead, or she wasn’t. And if Jairus already knew she was dead, then there was no point in his servants coming to tell him that (so of course, they don’t appear in Matthew’s account).

The Centurion
This is similar to the previous issue. Matthew and Luke both record a centurion who asks Jesus to heal his sick servant. Matthew 8:5-13 says that the centurion himself comes before Jesus to ask for help. Luke 7:1-10 says that the Jewish elders went on his behalf, and then he sent servants to follow up. In Luke, Jesus never speaks to, or even sees, the centurion at all.

Hight Priest
In Mark 2:23-28, Jesus talks about the occasion from the Old Testament when David ate the showbread, which Jesus said was in the days of Abiathar the high priest. However, in 1 Samuel 21:1-6, it appears that Ahimelech was the high priest. Some have tried to answer this problem by saying that Abiathar was alive during that particular episode, so Jesus’ statement is still true. But that’s obviously not the intent of the passage. After all, we would correct anyone who said that the tragedy of 9/11 occurred during the days of President Barack Obama. He may have been alive at the time, but that event did not happen while he was President.

430 Years
Galatians 3:16-17 says this:

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

Here, Paul says that the law came 430 years after the promises were made to Abraham. But in Exodus 12:40-41, we see:

Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years. At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the LORD’s divisions left Egypt.

If the Israelites were in Egypt 430 years, then there could not have been 430 years between Abraham’s promises and the law. God made the promises to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3, and as we read on through Genesis, we see that Abraham had no children at this time. Later, he had a son named Isaac. When Isaac was 60 years old, he had Jacob (Gen 25:24-26), and Jacob had 12 sons that produced the 12 tribes of Israel. Already, we can see that some time has passed since Abraham received the promise. Once Jacob’s sons were all grown with families of their own, they finally settled in Egypt. Jacob was 130 years old at this time (Gen 47:9), and this marks the beginning of that 430 year period that the Israelites spent in Egypt.

That means that the time between the promise to Abraham and the giving of the law was actually over 600 years. So why did Paul say 430 years? I think it’s obvious that this was a simple mistake. He remembered the 430 year figure because that’s how much time the Israelites spent in Egypt, and so he simply misspoke. It’s not a big deal… except that he’s supposed to be inspired by God.

Jesus’ Birth
There are a number of issues surrounding Jesus’ birth. First, Matthew’s and Luke’s accounts contradict one another on virtually all the details, which you can read about here. Secondly, Matthew seems to invent an episode where Herod kills all the children in Bethlehem who are 2 and under, causing Mary, Joseph, and Jesus to flee to Egypt (instead of just returning home to Nazareth, because only Luke says that they started in Nazareth). Matthew does this in order to “fulfill” some Old Testament passages that actually have nothing to do with Jesus or killing babies. You can read about Matthew’s misuse of the Old Testament here — it’s quite blatant.

The Virgin Birth is one of the most famous aspects of Jesus’ story, and it was supposedly done in fulfillment of a prophecy from Isaiah. But it turns out that Isaiah was prophesying no such thing — he was talking about an event that was happening in his own time, and Matthew (once again) just appropriated the “prophecy” for his own devices. You can read all the details here.

Another problem concerning Jesus’ birth narratives is that Matthew and Luke both offer genealogies for Jesus, but they are completely different from one another. Worse, they don’t match the genealogies listed in the Old Testament, either. And Matthew claims that there was a pattern in the number of generations between Abraham and David, between David and the Babylonian captivity, and between the Babylonian captivity and Christ. But to get this neat division, he is forced to leave out some names. In other words, that pattern didn’t happen. You can read more about that here.

The Triumphal Entry
While not as blatant as most of these other issues, when Matthew recounts Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem, he once again borrows from the Old Testament, but seems to make a mistake in his implementation. See here for more info.

Judas’ Death
Judas is well known for being the disciple that betrayed Jesus, but what’s not as well known is there are two different accounts of his death, and it’s very hard to reconcile them. According to Matthew, Judas threw his money down at the chief priests’ feet and went out and hanged himself. We’re not told where he did this. The priests then take the money, and instead of putting it back in the treasury (since it’s blood money), they buy a field to use for burying strangers. Because they bought the field with this money, it’s called the “Field of Blood.”

According to Acts, Judas bought a field with his money (we’re not told that he was remorseful), and he somehow fell down, bursting open in the middle and bleeding to death. The field was called “Field of Blood” after that because of the manner in which Judas died.

To make things more complicated, Matthew (of course) says that this happened in accordance with Jeremiah’s prophecy, but there’s nothing in Jeremiah that matches up. The closest reference comes from Zechariah, not Jeremiah.

These issues really complicate the notion of divine inspiration, and you can read more about them here.

The Crucifixion
There are several big problems with the way the gospels record the events of Jesus’ death, including the fact that different times of day are given for it, and even different days altogether. You can read more about this here.

The Resurrection
There are also a number of problems concerning the resurrection, some minor, some major. They’re too involved to get into here, but you can read all about them here and here.

The Problem of Hell
The notion of Hell is fraught with problems. It might even surprise you to learn that the Bible’s teachings on the afterlife change dramatically between the Old and New Testaments. I go into detail about Hell’s problems here, here, and here.

The Problem of Evil
Another huge problem for Christianity is the problem of evil, which I talk about here. This post also addresses the “problem of Heaven.”

The Bible’s Morality
While a number of people believe that the Christian god is the source of all morality, the Bible is actually filled with some monstrous acts that are either commanded by God, done with his consent, or carried out by him directly. I talk about some specific examples here, and I address some of the common responses to them here.

Conclusion

Kathy, there are a number of other examples that could be given, including the prophecy of Tyre that we’ve been discussing. But to me, these are some of the most significant and clear-cut problems. We could try to manufacture explanations for every one of these — some might be more believable than others. But why should we have to? If a perfect God inspired this book, why should it contain so many discrepancies? And honestly, some of these issues can’t be explained. They’re just wrong. The problems go well beyond internal contradictions and unfulfilled prophecies. There are problems of authorship, problems with the doctrines, and problems with the way the texts were written, transcribed, and compiled.

I’m sure you’ve spent your time as a Christian trying to reach those who are lost. You’ve always believed that Christianity is truth, and it’s the one thing that everyone needs. But could it be that Christianity is just as false as every other religion in the world? And if that’s the case, wouldn’t you want to leave it behind? When one is dedicated to finding truth, they have to be prepared to follow it wherever it leads. It’s not always easy or popular. It’s not even a guarantee that you’re right. All it means is that you follow the evidence where it leads to the best of your ability. If you find out that you’re wrong about something, you adjust course when the evidence dictates. If God exists, and if he’s righteous, what more could he ask for than that? I’ll close with my favorite quote:

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
— Marcus Aurelius

1,782 thoughts on “Letter to Kathy (the Bible Has Problems)”

  1. “Another problem with the creation accounts is that Genesis 1 says that plants and trees were made on the 3rd day, while man was made on the 6th. But Genesis 2:5-9 says that man was created before there were any plants or trees in the land. Also, the 1st chapter says that man was created after all the animals, but the 2nd chapter implies that it was the other way around.”

    Nate where would this contradiction be? I’m looking and can’t find it. Genesis 2 is a summary of creation and beginning in verse 8 an account of God’s creating the garden of eden. I mean it tells you right there in black and white theres a Separate action of planting a garden.

    Hint Nate. verse 8 and 9 aren’t about the creation of plants in the world its of god planting a particular garden

    IF your very first point to Kathy starts out with misreading the text what will that say to her and how will you convince her to flake out on her faith?

    Evolution? Meh a three month long debate within itself. I doubt you will proselytize her away from God based on that but theres a lot of fun in these alleged contradictions

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  2. Glad you’re having a good time. 🙂

    Here’s Genesis 2 in context:

    4 These are the generations
    of the heavens and the earth when they were created,
    in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.

    5 When no bush of the field[a] was yet in the land[b] and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, 6 and a mist[c] was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground— 7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. 8 And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground the Lord God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

    The garden is mentioned in verse 8, that’s true, but that’s not what’s being talked about in verse 5.

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  3. “The garden is mentioned in verse 8, that’s true, but that’s not what’s being talked about in verse 5.”

    Verse 5 is the creation of plant life around the world Nate. The garden as the text comes right up in your face and tells you is about the planting of a particular garden beside that

    Again wheres the contradiction?

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  4. Mike, nates saying that even in vs 8, the plants didn’t start coming up until he put man there.

    I don’t care so much about this problem, not because I don’t see it, it’s just very easy to dismiss and say he’s rehashing chapter 1, but not caring about the order…

    I think it’s pretty easy to see nate’s point. he’s taking it literally – if you prefer figurative, then okay, in so doing you also acknowledge the literal problem.

    what about the birds? land or water? I guess if we much these together, it’s both?

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  5. @Mike Anthony

    Your interpretation of the bible is classic apologist with a large dollop of asinine.
    You cherry pick your way to a feel good answer to help cope with your intellectual inferiority and then lambaste your detractors simply to shore up emotional inadequacies and yet have not the honesty or integrity to offer an explanation as to how your man god, Jesus of Nazareth is the reason and creator of it all.

    *** edited ***

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  6. “Mike, nates saying that even in vs 8, the plants didn’t start coming up until he put man there.’

    Nope you can’t save Nate he already said this was a contradiction with chapter one and theres none in sight. the creation of the garden of eden as even the text says is a separate action. so Go d caused plants to grow in a garden he was making for him. No contradiction with when plants were created in the world in general.

    It aint hard people. Just read the text.

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  7. Mike, I can’t tell from your comments exactly what you’re saying. Even more perplexing is that you constantly claim victory without really offering anything concrete.

    Genesis 1:11-12, 26, 31:

    11 And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants[e] yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.

    26 Then God said, “Let us make man[h] in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

    31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

    Genesis 2:4-9:

    4 These are the generations
    of the heavens and the earth when they were created,
    in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
    5 When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, 6 and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground— 7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. 8 And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground the Lord God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

    In Genesis 1, God creates plants, trees, etc on the 3rd day. On the 6th day, he creates man. So plants first, man later. But in Genesis 2, verses 5 and 7 say that man was created before the plants. There is no mention of the garden until verse 8 — until then, we’ve been speaking in general terms.

    Now maybe you think there’s wiggle room there — that’s fine. But as they stand, when taken literally, they present a contradiction. Anyone can see that. When you pretend that there’s nothing at all in the text to hint at a contradiction, you only damage your own credibility.

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  8. Okay next and then thats all I have time for today

    Ten plagues.

    You know Nate at some point you are going to have to stop skipping the language the text was written in. So many of your alleged contradictions fizzle on you because you insist on your preferred translation and never look at either the Hebrew or the greek. Thats the case here in spades

    miqneh
    in chapter 9 exodus

    refers to bought livestock (its actually translated as possession a few times) so its bought animals out at field grazing etc as the text says. I mean the passage even goes to the length of specifying which animals were in question as well

    behēmâ
    in 11:5 refers to any beast in all the land of egypt owned, wild or otherwise

    Two different words

    In addition 11:5 says all firstborn beasts in all of Egypt Chapter 9 says only egyptian owned. As you should know from the your bible teaching days the first born applied to the jews as well if they did not get blood covering on their doors

    it will make me awhile to work through so much misreading and not studying the text but its not off to a good start for you but maybe you can convince Kathy the rest is much better

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  9. Interesting. I can see where Mike gets his POV … although I do feel he’s stretching it a bit. I think most people would say, if there are no plants, then how does God create the garden? But as Nate’s blog readers have already noticed, Mike seems to see scripture a bit differently than most.

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  10. “Now maybe you think there’s wiggle room there — that’s fine. ”

    I dont need any wiggle room nate. Heres what the passage says

    “Genesis 2:4-7 (KJV)
    4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.’

    WHat does the passage say God made Nate? Let me cap if for you this time

    the LORD God MADE THE EARTH and THE HEAVENS And EVERY PLANT of the field before it was in the earth, and EVERY HERB of the field before it grew:

    The passage says they were already made!. READ.

    How were they not on the earth? t was before they grew – They were in seed form Nate so the passage continues

    6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

    The idea is easy peazy God had the mist water the earth so the plants would grow then afterwards

    7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    So the man comes AFTER the plant life was made and the passage tells you that point blank

    NO problemo. Another contradiction bites the dust.

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  11. “But as Nate’s blog readers have already noticed, Mike seems to see scripture a bit differently than People who don’t study the text.”

    I fixed that for you Nan. You can thank me later and I just answered your question. Nate’s ignoring entirely that the verse says plants were made in verse 5. it might be verse divisions that are confusing him but there are no verse divisions in the original text

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  12. Mike, this is flat-out ridiculous, maybe disingenuous. The text is clear, as I quoted above. So now you’re saying God had to wait for the plants to grow? He can speak them into existence, but not full-grown?

    Keep up the acrobatics, Mike.

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  13. “The idea is easy peazy God had the mist water the earth so the plants would grow then afterwards”

    NOT according to the New Jerome Biblical Commentary, Mike ! It says about Ch 2 v6, “the water under the earth that wells up in rivers; this water does not apparently fertilize the earth sufficiently for plant life”

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  14. “Mike, this is flat-out ridiculous, maybe disingenuous. ”

    Uh – huh. DIdn’t take you long to do what you claim you never do eh Nate? Don’t question atheists motives eh? all because a treasured contradiction goes down from looking at the text.

    “So now you’re saying God had to wait for the plants to grow? He can speak them into existence, but not full-grown?”

    Oh wow now we are getting into some presuppositions about Genesis that are not even in there. That God said Poof let there be trees and they appear full grown. Guess what nate most of the creation of life is god telling the natural elements to bring forth life not appear fully formed poof. read the book

    “Keep up the acrobatics, Mike.”

    keep up running from any perfectly legit way of reading and translating the text just to suit your bias because it debunks your alleged contradiction

    Meanwhile I wonder why the text was saying there was no man to till the ground since even if there were there would be no plants to grow.

    Please you cherry pick your translations to get where you want to go

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  15. And looking at Christian websites ONLY when trying to determine when the first rain began. They are pretty much divided . Many say there was NO rain before the flood. So did God plant the Garden of Eden during Noah’s time ?????

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  16. “You’re not citing any references Mike except the Commentary of Mike.”

    Too silly as usually NO umm let me use Nate’s word ….tooo disingenuous. I could have sworn I cited the KJV translators as conjoining the verb made with plants and Herbs.

    So does darby

    AND every shrub of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew; for Jehovah Elohim had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground.

    Further to rebut Nate’s utter foolishness of claiming my position is absurd is the very word grow which his own treasure translation renders

    “no small plant of the field had yet sprung ”

    which is ṣāmaḥ
    which mean TO SPROUT
    as in to appear above ground

    SO the passage is not saying plants do not exist in any form but that they had not sprouted above ground yet

    Now of course Nate has revealed that he has this very common but utterly wrong idea that God says let their be life and they appear out of thin air. Even some christians hold this unbiblical view . however its utterly wrong God commands the earth and the waters to bring forth life and the ground to bring forth plants so theres no reason to think its instant and not a process (however long or short that might be).

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