and I had a clever reply to neuro regarding dictators, but as i pressed “post comment” it was lost as nate had just closed that section for discussion – so I guess I’ve leave that subject alone… for now.
LOL, yes sir, does that mean you prefer your dictators big, but will settle for smaller ones if they’re around, or is that you only like bigger ones?
but I am thinking a bigger dictator that cant stand up or cant stand up for long isnt really that impressive.
But whether big, small, average, good or bad, if i’m the dictator, then i’m the only dictator. But hey, I dont have to be in complete control all the time, I’m willing to let someone else be on top for a little bit, but make no mistake, there’ll be no mistaking who’s in charge when i’m in charge.
Kathy, next time you’re looking for something interesting to read, check out this: Book Review: The Bible Tells Me So. I know you won’t read anything by “liberals”, but this book review is done by a conservative evangelical. The book itself is written by Peter Enns, a progressive Christian scholar.
This article demonstrates that there are theologians that believe in God, believe in Jesus and yet would agree with many things that Nate, William and others have written concerning the old testament. Here’s a quote from the article:
Evangelicals have got it all wrong. They read these texts as historical narratives correlating to true events, and the Bible can’t always live up to this expectation. Thus, they are defending something that can’t be defended. Instead, according to Enns, the Bible should be read as a series of stories that interpret Israel’s cultural-historical memory through the perspective of later authors. Events happened, later generations interpreted them as divine, and creative writers described the events in this way, even putting words into God’s mouth. In reality though, God never commanded these events, God didn’t lead Israel into battle, and most likely some of the events never occurred at all. For Enns, the reader shouldn’t struggle with these texts because they never happened. These texts are a “quest [by their authors] to experience God in the present, a sometimes volatile and catastrophic present.”
Dave, if she even bothers to read the quote you posted, I think once she gets to the last part that starts “In reality though …”, her mind will immediately shut down. Nice try, though.
“…Events happened, later generations interpreted them as divine, and creative writers described the events in this way, even putting words into God’s mouth. In reality though, God never commanded these events, God didn’t lead Israel into battle, and most likely some of the events never occurred at all. For Enns, the reader shouldn’t struggle with these texts because they never happened. These texts are a “quest [by their authors] to experience God in the present, a sometimes volatile and catastrophic present.”
I can accept many of the stories in the Bible based on this consideration. People do that today. People who believe in God want to find some way to make sense of the chaos that is in their minds supposed to be so orderly. When hurricanes, earthquakes, wars, wildfires, personal tragedies hit people try so desperately to see what God is doing. A good example is Kathy’s interpretation of Neuro’s financial loss. There is nothing in “God’s Word” that tells us he had anything to do with it at all. Yet a Christian will read God into it every time.
I’m interested in the medo-persian things for a few reasons
1) Christians maintain that there was a medo-persian empire. Historically, all i see is a persian empire.
2) Christians say this for a few reasons, and Daniel’s interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar dream in Daniel 2 is one of them. There, christians maintain that the medo-persian empire overthrew the baylonians, who were then taken by the greeks, who were then taken by the romans – when the church was established. However, daniel aligns a little better with history if daniel meant that the medes were the second power, then the persians the third with the greeks as the fourth.
3) Esther makes mention of the law of the medes and the persians…
does anything in secular history agree that there was a medo-persian empire? We hear about the 300 spartans vs the persians, not the medo persians. the cyrus cilynder speaks about the persians doing this or that, not the medo-persians. We know from history that there was some relation between the medes and persians, but that the persians conquered the medes before Cyrus too babylon.
Jeremiah 50 and 51 talks about how the medes will conquer and destroy babylon – but they didnt. The persians walked into babylon and took it without a fight. Did the biblical authors just assume jeremiah was right and try to marry his forecast with actual events, creating a fictitious medo-persian empire?
If there was no medo-persian empire, then that is one more strike against Daniel and Esther – although those books are already suspect for other issues.
There is nothing in “God’s Word” that tells us he had anything to do with it at all. Yet a Christian will read God into it every time.
Ruth, I used to live like this everyday. I even analyzed the thoughts in my head wondering if they were from God or not. Every event in our lives could theoretically be a message from God or one of his Angels and we could make ourselves go crazy worrying about them. At some point we have to get a hold of ourselves and stop playing mind games with these “invisible men”. *hint hint* Kathy 🙂
“Actually, I initially used the term, “canned response,” but decided that might disillusion you in the event that you were harboring any.” lol.. how thoughtful of you
Don’t feel like you’re alone in that. I interpreted every.single.thing. through that lens. There are points in my life where it was almost necessary to live that way to survive. Well, it seemed that way at the time. If I were going to live by the scriptures, that is. I didn’t think I had any option but to try to interpret the events unfolding in my life as divinely guided. What was I supposed to learn? What was God trying to teach me? What was the purpose of this and that?
As a result I interpreted for other people, too. 🙂 Handy, that one.
At some point we have to get a hold of ourselves and stop playing mind games with these “invisible men”.
Amen and amen. That is all it amounts to. We are giving ourselves one massive mind….well, you know. It’s so very anti-climactic.
I am so glad to be free from that maddening mind chatter.
In the previous post, a few of us were having a discussion about Mississippi. Not only is the state exceptionally dysfunctional, it also happens to be the most religious. From a cognitive sciences study “The Origins of Religious Disbelief”:
“Religious engagement is far stronger in societies marked by poverty, high infant mortality, short life-spans, economic inequality, and nonexistent or unreliable government services and social safety nets.
Some of the least religious societies on earth are found in contemporary Northern Europe and Scandinavia; not surprisingly, these are perhaps the most existentially secure societies in the history of humanity. Where life is safe and predictable, people are less motivated to turn to gods for succor.”
My dad was transferred (job) to Mississippi when I was 10. I no longer live there. But I remember hearing sermons in church condemning these societies for having their chit together. For being cooperative, for taking care of their citizens, for being peaceful. They were of the devil, proclaimed the preachers.
Studies show that the most religious states in the U.S. are the worst states to live in, while the least religious states are the best states to live in. In fact, the South (Bible Belt) is the worst region of the country to live in according to data from a new report by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD).
New Hampshire made it to the top of the list for being the best state to live in. It happens to be the second least religious state in the Union, with Vermont being the least religious, which happens to be in the top three of the best states to live in.
If you want the best education, the best health, the cleanest environment, the safest environment, the least crime, the best place to earn a living, the best place for internet access, the best job opportunities, etc., move to the least bible thumping states.
Where religion thrives, social well being takes a dive. It would appear that the Christian god wants environmental conditions of inequality, sickness, poverty, illiteracy, crime, etc., — basically the worst of human conditions — thus ensuring loyalty.
Will you please remind me of how wonderful NH is in 4 months when my driveway is a sheet of ice and I’m having mini avalanches from the snow piled up against the retaining wall? : )
I am an atheist, in part, because my mother was born and raised in poverty in rural Tennessee. Her father was an abusive, Southern Baptist, alcoholic lay preacher. She did well to marry my father, who sold Kirby vacuum cleaners but eventually retired as a Lieutenant Commander in the Coast Guard. He had gone to college, and was an electrical engineer and an atheist.
I am so grateful that they made sure we got a good education, learned to trust our own thinking, and got the hell out of the Bible belt. It is still an uphill battle, even here in New Hampshire. Legislators are trying to pass laws eroding the teaching of evolution in the public schools, for instance. I have encountered many evangelical Christians, especially at work, and I have been told it is offensive to say I am an atheist. I have been harassed by a Christian in my former place of work. I don’t talk about it much where I work now.
I can’t imagine living somewhere on the opposite end of the spectrum. I feel like an alien here sometimes because of my atheism.
Gliese, I smiled and thought about you when I read the stats about NH. I’ll take the snow drifts any day. It is disconcerting that the evangelicals are attempting to cast darkness on your beautiful state. They are doing that in Europe too. The Christian Science Monitor stated that they aim to change European Law, meaning, affect the rights of women, children and LGBT, etc. The American Prospect states: “Flush with cash and ancient hatreds, American evangelicals are incubating a Christian right in secular Europe.” They further state:
“And as evangelical Christianity and other conservative religious movements gain force in Europe, the American right is finding more allies on the Continent. Cumulatively, their victories may be changing the global climate on some of the biggest social issues of our time. “We have a conservative period now in history — a substantial movement to the right around the world,” says James Paul, executive director of the Global Policy Forum in New York and a prominent thinker on the globalization of the Christian right.”
From the European Evangelical Alliance (EEA) founded by American evangelicals:
“Vision 2020 is the product of EEA’s reflection on religious liberty trends over 19 years, learning from our members, partners and political experiences. It has an ambitious goal – to pave the way for far greater Gospel impact in Europe by 2020 – because we have changed attitudes towards religious freedom, and because we have renewed Evangelical confidence in the Gospel and in our ability to share it, no matter what happens. Europe’s Evangelicals will be effective Good News People.”
I tend to think of the evangelists of all religions turning up the heat of their agendas as the baby boomers age. They know it won’t be long and a large number of people the world’s baby boomers will be, well . . . dead. And for those of us still alive, we won’t be speaking up and if we are we might be speaking gibberish if at all. Consider our aging minds and bodies quietly decaying into the night. (Cheerful eh?)
Finding Truth 
i’d still like to discuss the medo-Persian empire vs the persian empire thing…
anyone have any thoughts or even see why i think this is an issue?
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and I had a clever reply to neuro regarding dictators, but as i pressed “post comment” it was lost as nate had just closed that section for discussion – so I guess I’ve leave that subject alone… for now.
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Responding to a comment from the last thread:
William, any woman who tells you the size of the dictator doesn’t matter, is lying to spare your feelings.
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LOL, yes sir, does that mean you prefer your dictators big, but will settle for smaller ones if they’re around, or is that you only like bigger ones?
but I am thinking a bigger dictator that cant stand up or cant stand up for long isnt really that impressive.
But whether big, small, average, good or bad, if i’m the dictator, then i’m the only dictator. But hey, I dont have to be in complete control all the time, I’m willing to let someone else be on top for a little bit, but make no mistake, there’ll be no mistaking who’s in charge when i’m in charge.
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but enough about rooster shaped roots, to the persians and to the medes….
Now cyrus was an impressive dictator… darius the mede, well, let’s just say the stories of his grandeur make one suspect whether he was ever real…
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My internet modem thanks you 🙂
William, why is the medo-Persian empire vs the persian empire an issue?
Arch, I don’t expect to hear back from NASA. Someone slumped over a computer will glance at it and send back a canned response… three weeks from now.
The idea, though perhaps not realistic, at least had good intentions. My son read the email over my shoulder so perhaps he will get a better idea.
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Kathy, next time you’re looking for something interesting to read, check out this: Book Review: The Bible Tells Me So. I know you won’t read anything by “liberals”, but this book review is done by a conservative evangelical. The book itself is written by Peter Enns, a progressive Christian scholar.
This article demonstrates that there are theologians that believe in God, believe in Jesus and yet would agree with many things that Nate, William and others have written concerning the old testament. Here’s a quote from the article:
LikeLike
Dave, if she even bothers to read the quote you posted, I think once she gets to the last part that starts “In reality though …”, her mind will immediately shut down. Nice try, though.
LikeLike
“…Events happened, later generations interpreted them as divine, and creative writers described the events in this way, even putting words into God’s mouth. In reality though, God never commanded these events, God didn’t lead Israel into battle, and most likely some of the events never occurred at all. For Enns, the reader shouldn’t struggle with these texts because they never happened. These texts are a “quest [by their authors] to experience God in the present, a sometimes volatile and catastrophic present.”
I can accept many of the stories in the Bible based on this consideration. People do that today. People who believe in God want to find some way to make sense of the chaos that is in their minds supposed to be so orderly. When hurricanes, earthquakes, wars, wildfires, personal tragedies hit people try so desperately to see what God is doing. A good example is Kathy’s interpretation of Neuro’s financial loss. There is nothing in “God’s Word” that tells us he had anything to do with it at all. Yet a Christian will read God into it every time.
LikeLike
Dave,
I’m interested in the medo-persian things for a few reasons
1) Christians maintain that there was a medo-persian empire. Historically, all i see is a persian empire.
2) Christians say this for a few reasons, and Daniel’s interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar dream in Daniel 2 is one of them. There, christians maintain that the medo-persian empire overthrew the baylonians, who were then taken by the greeks, who were then taken by the romans – when the church was established. However, daniel aligns a little better with history if daniel meant that the medes were the second power, then the persians the third with the greeks as the fourth.
3) Esther makes mention of the law of the medes and the persians…
does anything in secular history agree that there was a medo-persian empire? We hear about the 300 spartans vs the persians, not the medo persians. the cyrus cilynder speaks about the persians doing this or that, not the medo-persians. We know from history that there was some relation between the medes and persians, but that the persians conquered the medes before Cyrus too babylon.
Jeremiah 50 and 51 talks about how the medes will conquer and destroy babylon – but they didnt. The persians walked into babylon and took it without a fight. Did the biblical authors just assume jeremiah was right and try to marry his forecast with actual events, creating a fictitious medo-persian empire?
If there was no medo-persian empire, then that is one more strike against Daniel and Esther – although those books are already suspect for other issues.
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William, thanks for the explanation.
There is nothing in “God’s Word” that tells us he had anything to do with it at all. Yet a Christian will read God into it every time.
Ruth, I used to live like this everyday. I even analyzed the thoughts in my head wondering if they were from God or not. Every event in our lives could theoretically be a message from God or one of his Angels and we could make ourselves go crazy worrying about them. At some point we have to get a hold of ourselves and stop playing mind games with these “invisible men”. *hint hint* Kathy 🙂
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Actually, I initially used the term, “canned response,” but decided that might disillusion you in the event that you were harboring any.
“My son read the email over my shoulder….” – and the torch is passed.
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You’re right, Nan – Kathy and Reality are not on the best of terms.
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“Actually, I initially used the term, “canned response,” but decided that might disillusion you in the event that you were harboring any.” lol.. how thoughtful of you
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That’s just the kinda guy I am —
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Dave,
Ruth, I used to live like this everyday.
Don’t feel like you’re alone in that. I interpreted every.single.thing. through that lens. There are points in my life where it was almost necessary to live that way to survive. Well, it seemed that way at the time. If I were going to live by the scriptures, that is. I didn’t think I had any option but to try to interpret the events unfolding in my life as divinely guided. What was I supposed to learn? What was God trying to teach me? What was the purpose of this and that?
As a result I interpreted for other people, too. 🙂 Handy, that one.
At some point we have to get a hold of ourselves and stop playing mind games with these “invisible men”.
Amen and amen. That is all it amounts to. We are giving ourselves one massive mind….well, you know. It’s so very anti-climactic.
LikeLike
yeah, it is interesting how if something good happens, then god is blessing me.
If something bad happens, well that’s either a test, or a trial of satan, or punishment for something – depending on how you feel that day.
everything is evidence for anything if you look at it just right.
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I am so glad to be free from that maddening mind chatter.
In the previous post, a few of us were having a discussion about Mississippi. Not only is the state exceptionally dysfunctional, it also happens to be the most religious. From a cognitive sciences study “The Origins of Religious Disbelief”:
My dad was transferred (job) to Mississippi when I was 10. I no longer live there. But I remember hearing sermons in church condemning these societies for having their chit together. For being cooperative, for taking care of their citizens, for being peaceful. They were of the devil, proclaimed the preachers.
Studies show that the most religious states in the U.S. are the worst states to live in, while the least religious states are the best states to live in. In fact, the South (Bible Belt) is the worst region of the country to live in according to data from a new report by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/10/07/why-the-south-is-the-worst-place-to-live-in-the-u-s-in-10-charts/
New Hampshire made it to the top of the list for being the best state to live in. It happens to be the second least religious state in the Union, with Vermont being the least religious, which happens to be in the top three of the best states to live in.
If you want the best education, the best health, the cleanest environment, the safest environment, the least crime, the best place to earn a living, the best place for internet access, the best job opportunities, etc., move to the least bible thumping states.
Where religion thrives, social well being takes a dive. It would appear that the Christian god wants environmental conditions of inequality, sickness, poverty, illiteracy, crime, etc., — basically the worst of human conditions — thus ensuring loyalty.
LikeLike
Forgot to mention, according to the OEDC — Mississippi came in dead last (again) as the worst state to live in.
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Will you please remind me of how wonderful NH is in 4 months when my driveway is a sheet of ice and I’m having mini avalanches from the snow piled up against the retaining wall? : )
I am an atheist, in part, because my mother was born and raised in poverty in rural Tennessee. Her father was an abusive, Southern Baptist, alcoholic lay preacher. She did well to marry my father, who sold Kirby vacuum cleaners but eventually retired as a Lieutenant Commander in the Coast Guard. He had gone to college, and was an electrical engineer and an atheist.
I am so grateful that they made sure we got a good education, learned to trust our own thinking, and got the hell out of the Bible belt. It is still an uphill battle, even here in New Hampshire. Legislators are trying to pass laws eroding the teaching of evolution in the public schools, for instance. I have encountered many evangelical Christians, especially at work, and I have been told it is offensive to say I am an atheist. I have been harassed by a Christian in my former place of work. I don’t talk about it much where I work now.
I can’t imagine living somewhere on the opposite end of the spectrum. I feel like an alien here sometimes because of my atheism.
LikeLike
Gliese, I smiled and thought about you when I read the stats about NH. I’ll take the snow drifts any day. It is disconcerting that the evangelicals are attempting to cast darkness on your beautiful state. They are doing that in Europe too. The Christian Science Monitor stated that they aim to change European Law, meaning, affect the rights of women, children and LGBT, etc. The American Prospect states: “Flush with cash and ancient hatreds, American evangelicals are incubating a Christian right in secular Europe.” They further state:
http://prospect.org/article/tomorrow-world
From the European Evangelical Alliance (EEA) founded by American evangelicals:
http://www.europeanea.org/index.php/vision-2020/
“Good News People”
*shudders*
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The world is starting to feel rather medieval.
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I tend to think of the evangelists of all religions turning up the heat of their agendas as the baby boomers age. They know it won’t be long and a large number of people the world’s baby boomers will be, well . . . dead. And for those of us still alive, we won’t be speaking up and if we are we might be speaking gibberish if at all. Consider our aging minds and bodies quietly decaying into the night. (Cheerful eh?)
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Atheists: Raiders of the Lost Ark!
Noah’s Ark Theme Park Loses $18M In Tax Breaks Unless They Hire Atheists
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‘Profit before principle.’ That says it all.
Why don’t they call it for what it is — Genocide Theme Park.
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