A little while back, I found a post on this blog that I decided to answer. He quoted this passage in Hebrews (as I have done below) and asked if anyone had thoughts on what it meant. Of course, I did, and I felt like they were pretty well reasoned. No one ever responded to my comment, so I thought I would repost it here, to see if any of you would like to.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. – Hebrews 6:4-6
This is definitely a difficult passage. Hebrews 10:26-30 is a little clearer in my opinion.
But basically, does this passage sound like Christians can fall away from God? From salvation? And if they do, does it further mean that they can never get that relationship back??
Well, I do absolutely believe that Christians can fall away and lose their salvation. Again, the passage in Hebrews 10 teaches that plainly – it talks about one who “was sanctified” looking forward to a “fearful expectation of judgment.”
But I don’t think that means we can never be forgiven. Romans 11:19-24 talks about this subject by comparing Christians to the branches of an olive tree. Those who were Jews and had rejected Christ, were cut off from God. But Paul tells the Gentiles not to be haughty, because if the Jews could have been cut off, the Gentiles could be as well, if they turned away. And then, if they repented, they could be “grafted” back in.
So even if we can fall from God’s grace, he will accept us back with loving arms when we see the error of our way. The parable of the Prodigal Son shows us exactly that.
I think Hebrews 6 is making the same point, and when it says “it is impossible to renew them to repentance,” I think it’s saying that as long as those Christians continue in sin, there’s no sacrifice for them… in other words, they can’t be saved while hanging on to that sin. Like Paul says in Romans 6:1-2, if we’ve died to sin, how can we continue in it? That’s the life that we are to put off, when we become Christians.
So as long as we refuse to give up sinful things, we can’t be “renewed again to repentance” because we mock the sacrifice that Christ made for us. As Hebrews 10 says, we “trample the Son of God under foot and count the blood of the covenant by which we were sanctified a common thing.”
Finding Truth 
By the way, I’d like to add to something Lauren mentioned when she referenced Hebrews 11. Stewart, in a way, faith is all that’s required of us. But I think that what James 2 teaches and what Hebrews 11 illustrates, is that true faith will result in obedience. That obedience will cause someone to confess Jesus as the Christ, repent of their sins, be baptized for the remission of those sins, and live their life serving God to the best of their abilities.
Anyone who doesn’t do those things is either ignorant of those commands, or he doesn’t have true faith. As James 2 says, even the demons believe, and tremble! So if we really do have faith in God and his son, then we can’t help but obey him, and in that way, our faith saves us.
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Thanks Nathan, you made what I was trying to say so much clearer!
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Just wanted to point out that I’ve posted another topic that relates to this. Hope it will be helpful.
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Ok, I have lots to comment on 🙂
I hope we are getting thing accomplished, it seems as if we are moving forward to a semi-agreement.
Matthew 7:21 – doing His will is believing in Him… the first step of obedience is faith (i.e. Romans 1:5). Doing His will is synonymous with faith, for that is what faith is.
John 14:15 – Loving Christ and keeping His commandments are a product of true faith. Furthermore, the entire letter of 1 John was written to believers to show assurance of salvation. John’s theology of salvation must be based off this fact.
Romans 10 – Confession is faith.
Ephesians 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.” You wanted a passage that says faith alone here it is… notice Paul says not by works or else man could boast that he saved himself.
Philippians 2:12-13, very difficult passage (remember we interpret difficult passages by clearer ones). It is clear though, that Paul is expressing obedience with the notion of working out one’s salvation. Yet, what does he mean? The key is verse 13, “for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” This is assurance of salvation! It is God who began the good work in us, and it is God who will complete it (see also Phil 1:6). Therefore, the only answer can be that our faith–which is most definitly worked out in fear and trembling–is what allowed God to first work in us, and more specifically will continue working in us till the day we meet Him. This passage is about assurance not about works.
James 2 – I discussed this before, our good deeds (i.e. our works) prove that we are saved. However, works do not save. James never exposes a works based salvation.
1 Peter 3:21 – Peter is talking about that literal point in history, notice that it was the water that saved them from God’s wrath… in all actuality it was Noah’s belief in God which allowed God to use him to build an ark. Therefore, the illustration of Noah serves as truth to us as to how God saves us… not literally through baptism, but through belief which leads to baptism.
Matt,
I enjoyed reading your commentary, now I would like to present a different view on the facts you presented.
First, let’s start in the OT. It is important to note the sacrificial system was for acts of sin. This is highly important: the purification system was for diseases not sin. Did you follow? Think about it this way, the purification system under the Mosaic Law was for the following: Childbirth, Bridal Purity, Priestly Service, Male Concentration, Corpse Defilement, Utensil Purification, and for Jewish Converts. Every one of these rituals involved immersion.
Well then, if baptism truly cleanses us from sin, it must be rooted in the sacrificial system; but it’s not. Baptism is connected to the purification system, which was never set up to cleanse sin.
Now look ahead to John the Baptist. Was there cleansing or a transformation involved? Yes, but it was symbolic; what came out was different from what went in. Specifically, the NT teaches baptism is a commitment or an identification with John who focused on the hope of the coming Messiah (we see this in Matthew 3:4-12; John 1:31-33; historically fulfilled Isaiah 61). When Jesus was baptized we see a commitment to the Father.
Please understand I am taking a literal interpretation of Scripture.
Acts 2:38, “Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” It is very clear that baptism is a symbol of cleansing… in this verse Peter is expressing that they are to first repent (which is understanding they are sinful creatures, and need a savior; repentant individuals recognize they need a savior and place their faith in Him), and then be baptized… which is the first step of obedience for many Christians. At this point in history you did one and then the other to show you were truly aligning yourself with Christ. Baptism displayed the epitome of commitment.
Acts 8:12 shows believers were baptized… they believed first!!!
“But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.”
Acts 22:15-16,”For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’” Notice Paul focuses on commitment… be baptized. And then Paul states that calling on the Lord is how you wash away your sins; not baptism.
Also, notice the Romans 6:1-5, 1 Corinthians 12:13, and Galatians 3:27 all show that baptism is an identification with Christ. These passages show an identification not with salvation, but sanctification.
Shall we continue to sin? No… why? We have been baptized… people who know us know that we have publicly associated ourselves with Christ; therefore why do you sin, it only hurts the body and does not bring glory to Christ. Why? Because we have put on Christ! The world see this and God knows this… therefore when you sin you hurt the body that you have been associated with through your public baptism.
Comments on the passages you brought up that I haven’t touched on:
Mark 16:16 strongly shows that the non-believer is condemned, not the non-baptized.
Titus 3 is talking about spiritual baptism, not water baptism. Notice Paul mentions the regenerating by the Spirit. This is what happens when we are saved on God’s end. Baptism of the Spirit is what happens at salvation; baptism by water is done afterwards to show commitment.
BTW, good job on laying that all out. I was very much impressed by your presentation.
Nate,
For removal from the earth but not salvation look at 1 Corinthians 5 (specifically verse 5)… we know these people are saved because they are Christians (see Chapter 1). The delivering over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh can possibly mean two things: 1) allowing the believer to live a worldly life (and hopefully one day repent); or 2) death (i.e. literal destruction).
Also, I would say the obedience is the result of faith… faith is not a result of obedience. Once again I think Romans 1:5 makes that clear; the obedience of faith is obedience which literally comes out of faith (study the original Greek of this passage and you’ll see what I mean).
Not as long as Matt’s comment 😀
Hope my thoughts are clear.
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“Well then, if baptism truly cleanses us from sin, it must be rooted in the sacrificial system; but it’s not. Baptism is connected to the purification system, which was never set up to cleanse sin.”
Christ died once, a sacrifice for all. The first part of Romans 6:3-8 specifically tells us how through baptism we come in contact with this sacrifice.
Don’t you see it all has to fit together. There are too many verses that are phrased the same concerning salvation. Belief, Repentance, Confession, Baptism- all thoughout the NT these 4 things are talked about linking to salvation. We can’t just throw one of them out and accept the other. All somewhere are talked about leading to forgiveness, eternal life, salvation, regeneration, justification and so on.
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Oh and I forgot to touch on the OT and immerison. True it was mostly used for cleansing from impure things. However it was also used in conversion to Judaism. Here is one of my older post that I think ties in well:
There was actually an immersion used by the Jews to convert people to the Jewish faith. In Judaism whenever a gentile person wanted to convert to Judaism there were a few things required of him. One if he was male he was to be circumcised, two they performed a process called t’vilah in which they would be immersed in and out of a mikveh (this was a ritual bath that was supposed to be roughly 200gals and the person was submerged and then lifted out of the water) and thirdly a understanding of Jewish laws and principles must be shown. This Mikveh was basically a Jewish baptistery. It was also used for ceremonial cleansing of things considered unclean. So even in early Judaism we see a form of baptism being used to one bring people into the faith and two cleanse unclean things. Not that the water had special power, but that is what God commanded the Israelites to do to become clean and enter into the Jewish faith.
I see this as a direct corelation to what believer’s baptism does now. We as non christian Hear, Believe, Repent and Confess, then we are Baptized to wash away our sin and to die with Christ in hope of being raise in Him in His ressurection, just as Rom. 6 so beautifully describes.
We don’t have any direct quotes from our OT concerning the t’vilah in the mikveh. However there are plenty of Jewish customs and ordances that we don’t find in our verison of the OT. For further reading on the t’vilah check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tevilah
and on the mikveh read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh
and on general conversion to judaism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism
Hope all this helps in showing some of God’s foreshawdoing in the OT what was to come through his Son in the NT.
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Matt,
You think I’m confusing things, and I think you are.
Everything you are bringing up I place under sanctification…not salvation.
Basically salvation is by faith (which is precipitated by belief coupled with confession) and then through progressive sanctification everything else occurs. I mean Romans 8:28-32 is not listing an order of salvation it’s listing everything which occurs AT salvation.
I personally was saved over 12 years ago. I know this as a fact, I went to many Bible studies and grew in knowledge concerning God, Christ, etc. during this time. However I never went through believer’s baptism. At first, I did not know this was a step of obedience and didn’t realize that once you were saved you were supposed to undergo believer’s baptism. Well, eventually thought study and close friends, God showed me that I need to do this. So I joined a new church and was baptized on May 11, 2003. I know that prior to my baptism I would have gone to heaven if I died. Baptism didn’t change anything within me; what it did do was publicly aligned me with Christ. It was at that point where some of my worldly friends and family began to distant themselves from me.
Baptism is a public declaration of association with Christ, and that is why Paul is using such strong words in Romans 6… because the world expects a professing Christian to act a differently. If you have been publicly baptized, the world people expect you to act contrary to the world.
Also, there are two forms of Baptism: 1) water, what I call believer’s baptism; and 2) Spirit, the Holy Spirit coming upon us.
I do agree that Baptism of the Spirit is connected to what you mentioned… but water baptism is not. It’s only an outward step of obedience.
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Stewart: It’s not just the world that expects us to act different, for Romans 12:1-2 tells us God expects us to be different. Yes, obedience is sparked by Faith. (I noticed that you are now saying confession is required along with faith, so maybe we are making progress.) Faith is a work. It is something we are required to do. It is not our own work, rather it is us doing the work or will of God. I’m sorry, but your arguments , or the arguments presented by those you reference, are too convoluted for me to follow. Thankfully, the bible is simple and much easier to understand. There is no argument that Ephesians 2 tells us we are saved by grace through faith. It does not say faith only. I Peter 3:21 doesn’t say we are saved by baptism only, but it does say we are saved by baptism. Romans 6 tells us that through baptism we come in contact with the blood of Christ, which cleanses us from sin. Just as God requires us to have faith, he also requires us to repent (turn from a life of sin), confess Christ as the Son of God, be baptized for the remission of our sins, and begin our life as a babe in Christ, growing and working to become a mature Christian and servant of God. This seems very clear to me.
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“I personally was saved over 12 years ago. I know this as a fact, I went to many Bible studies and grew in knowledge concerning God, Christ, etc. during this time. However I never went through believer’s baptism. At first, I did not know this was a step of obedience and didn’t realize that once you were saved you were supposed to undergo believer’s baptism. Well, eventually thought study and close friends, God showed me that I need to do this. So I joined a new church and was baptized on May 11, 2003.”
Stewart,
Not trying to belittle, or be condeming but there is something in this paragraph I want to touch on. You stated you were saved 12 years ago, sometime in 1995 for arguments sake. And then you go on to state that you didn’t even realize you were supposed to be baptized until 2003. Thats a 8 year span where you state that you were going to bible studies and growing in knowledge concerning Christ. How can one study the bible for 8 years and not get the impression that one needs to be baptized? Even if you don’t believe in baptism for remission of sins (though the bible states this) I find it hard to believe that you could study for so long and not see the many places baptism is stressed.
I grew up in a southern baptist church. I was taught many the same things you have been stating here. At age 12 I said the sinner’s prayer and took part in a believer’s baptism as a public commitment to christ. 13 years latter through a lot of bible study and debate I came to realize that my salvation was incomplete. Nowhere in the bible will we find an example of the sinner’s prayer. Nowhere in the bible will we find baptism as a way to join a church, denomination or to publically commit ourselves to christ. We do find plenty of examples of belief, confession, repentance and baptism leading to salvation. Not of some work that we do, lest one should boast, but following the commands of God laid out for us in the NT. Its so simple and I really feel we overcomplicate it. Keynote passages from the NT stress its importance: the great commission, the message at pentacost, Peter said “repent and be baptized for forgiveness of sin” Anaiss told Saul to arise and be baptized to wash away his sin, Jesus told us to believe and be baptized, Paul told us that through baptism we are buried with Christ, and that if we are burried in christ we have the hope of being raised through him in his resurection. These aren’t my words, they are God’s straight from the bible. I don’t know how much clearer they could be. However I also know from first hand experience just how skilled men are at explaining away God’s clear message. Time and Time again as a teenage I was taught how god’s word really doesn’t say what it says. What great lengths people will go to, to try and explain away god’s commands to us. Its so much simpler and makes so much more sense when we let the bible speak for itself and follow its commands. I am praying for you and want to thank you for this discussion. Its very clear we have very differing oppinons, but I would encourage us to continue the conversation. I pray it continues and we all are benifit from it. One thing to keep in mind on this issue, similar to pascal’s wager. Either you are right or I am. If you are correct then we both are safe. If I am correct then we have another issue on our hands.
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Matt,
To answer your question as to why I did not feel I needed to be baptized; it’s because I was baptized as an infant, I grew up Methodist. It took a long time for me to realize I needed to undergo a believer’s baptism… I just did not understand.
As for Pascal’s Wager… I would agree with you.
Because if you are correct… a lot of people who confessed their sins and placed their faith in Christ while on their death bed are now in Hell. As is the theif on the cross who Jesus, declared would be in heaven with him that very day.
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There are several things that should probably be touched on, but I’ll start with this last one: deathbed confessions and the thief on the cross.
The thief on the cross is an interesting situation, and people often bring it up in a conversation about baptism. The first fact about the thief is that he understood who Christ was – at least to some degree. His faith was demonstrated by what he said on the cross. The second fact about him is that Christ told him his sins were forgiven and he would be with Christ in Paradise. Therefore, he was saved.
Many use this passage to show that faith was all that was required of the thief; therefore, it’s all that’s required of us. But in fact, there are a few things that keep us from making a direct correlation between himself and us.
The first, and most important, is that the thief on the cross was saved under the Old Law, where baptism was not a requirement for salvation. The Old Law wasn’t fulfilled until Christ’s death, as signified in the tearing of the veil of the temple and shown in Hebrews 9:16-17. When the thief was saved, Christ was still alive, so he wasn’t yet bound by the rules of the New Law. Today, we are. So it’s kind of hard to draw a true parallel between him and ourselves.
The second point, is that the thief could have been baptized before. For all we know, he could have been one of John’s disciples, and been baptized.
Finally, Christ himself told the thief that he would be saved. I doubt any of us have had a similar experience; therefore, we must obey what Christ has told us in his word, which would include the necessity of baptism.
Now deathbed confessions are a different matter. First of all, I will say that I don’t know exactly how God chooses to judge those matters. It could be that he accepts those confessions and forgives those people of their sins. However, I also believe that we can only tempt fate for so long. Most people who deliver deathbed confessions weren’t suddenly struck by some epiphany; they knew for a long time that they weren’t living as they should. Sooner or later, we all run out of time. And if we’ve squandered our opportunities for salvation, then we shouldn’t really expect to have the chance to throw in a “get out of jail free” card. Ultimately though, it doesn’t matter if those people are truly saved or not; none of us are on our deathbeds. Therefore, if we want to serve God, we need to follow his commands. One of those commands is baptism.
See Stewart, here’s the thing. I believe the Bible was given for our learning – that it was intended to be something we can understand. So when I read so many passages that tell me faith is necessary for salvation, then I believe that. When I read that confession is necessary, I believe that too. When I see passages that tell me of the importance of repentance – that it leads to salvation, then I have to believe that. And when I read that baptism is essential to my salvation, then I have no choice but to believe that as well. What other option is there, really? Though there are some difficult passages in the Bible, the ones that deal with salvation are pretty straightforward. Why not just accept them?
There is no passage that tells us we are saved by faith alone. You mentioned Eph 2:8-9, but that simply says we are saved by grace, through faith. Nowhere does that passage say faith alone does anything. How could it? That passage actually lists two things as relating to salvation: grace and faith.
As a matter of fact, the only passage I’m aware of that says “faith alone” is in James 2:17, where it says, “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” Now, does that sound positive?
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By the way, I wanted to point out one more thing. You said this:
Acts 22:15-16,”For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’” Notice Paul focuses on commitment… be baptized. And then Paul states that calling on the Lord is how you wash away your sins; not baptism.
I disagree with this statement for two reasons. One, as Matt has already pointed out, Paul has been “calling on the name of the Lord” for three days, at this point. At least, he has been through prayer and meditation. If that’s all that’s required for salvation, why does Ananias tell him to do it again to wash away his sins?
Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, if you look at this passage grammatically, you will notice that “calling” is used as a present participle. A participle is a verb that’s used in a non-verblike way. For instance, if I say “I love to eat” (and I do, by the way) love is the verb and to eat is the participle, which serves as a noun in this case.
But participles can also function as modifiers – as something that describes something else. “Please bring all the documents required” is an example where required explains what kind of documents need to be brought.
In the case of Acts 22:16 (and also in Matthew 28:19-20), Paul is told to do three things “arise,” “be baptized,” and “wash.” “Calling on the name of the Lord” describes what he’s doing. Therefore, if any of his actions are going to result in washing away his sins, it would have to be baptism, since he’s never told to call on the name of the Lord. Calling on the Lord’s name will be one of the results of his actions.
I hope that wasn’t too confusing…
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Nate,
As for the OT Law, people were saved then exactly how they are saved today; namely by God’s grace. Remember God always looks at the heart, and it is the heart that matters above all. No, this is not a contradiction because our faith is shown by our response to God’s pressings. If our heart is to God then we will follow him, if our heart is not open to God we harden ourselves against his pressings.
I’ve been trying to think of a clearer way to present my view. Think about this: If we are saved solely through faith alone, then everything else is a response to that faith. Hence, good works alone do not save; however as James makes it clear, good works show we are saved. Same with baptism, baptism does nothing apart from faith; yet baptism is an outward and public profession of aligning oneself with God. Confession is the same, it’s a sign true of faith. Grace comes into play as the fact that salvation is even possible… therefore we are saved by grace through faith.
Back to the thief and deathbed confessions… with my view you don’t have to jump through any theological hoops.
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I’m sorry, but your view seems to be riddled with hoops, to me. Again, there are so many plain passages that tell us more than just faith is required to be saved. I would agree that faith is probably the most important part, because without it, one wouldn’t be inclined to do any of the other things, but that doesn’t mean that faith alone saves. James 2 is pretty clear about that, as we keep bringing up.
Your view requires you to explain away passages like Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19-20, 1 Pet 3:21, 2 pet 2:20-22, Hebrews 10:26-31, etc, etc. Why are those passages worded the way they are, if they don’t mean what they say?
God simply requires more of us than just “faith.” Now if it’s true faith, then that’s a different story. True faith causes us to act certain ways, and the cumination of that is salvation and continued salvation.
If our actions don’t really matter, then what about all the examples the Bible gives us? The Children of Israel come to mind: just read the book of Judges. Whenever they fell away from God, he sent persecution among them. When they turned back to him and asked for deliverance, he sent judges. That cycle repeated over and over again. Why do you think they were taken into captivity? God had promised that the Promised Land would be theirs, unless they turned away from him. First Israel, and then Judah, fell away from God, and he allowed them to fall into captivity.
Surely you realize that the elements of the Old Testament were symbols of the covenant we now have with God? Our Promised Land is salvation, or heaven. While we live on this earth, God has promised us salvation, if we continue to follow him. If we turn away, why would he still bless us with the “Promised Land” when he didn’t do that with the Israelites?
And one more thing: while God saves us all by grace, regardless of which dispensation we live in, the rules of the Old Law were significantly different from those of the New Law. Baptism wasn’t required of the thief on the cross because he lived and died under the Old Law. Ultimately though, Jesus told him he was saved, and he’s told us how we can be saved as well. If we don’t follow that, then we have no excuse.
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Stewart:
I agree that faith in God and His word is what causes us to repent, confess, and be baptizes, as well as perform other good works. However, they must still be done,as commanded, or we will be lost. The Hebrew writer refers to the same thing in chapters 3 and 4 when he makes the comparison that the Israelites could not enter the promised land becouse of unbelief. They knew who God was, they were His chosen people, and they had a belief in Him. Unfortunayely, it wasn’t a strong enough faith to cause them to obey Him. Therefore, they were punished because they didn’t obey Him. We are warned in capter 4 of having the same problem, insufficient faith, which will keep us from layng hold on eternal salvation. If we are to please God, then we must do as the Romans who “obeyed from the heart” in chapter 6. Notice, in verses 16 and 17 that it was only after this obedience that Paul says they were “free from sin”.
You mentioned that faith was all that was required under the old law. Certainly faith was required, but obedience to God’s commands was demanded and expected by God. Just any works were not accepted, only those God commanded. King Saul, when told to go and utterly destroy the Amelakites, went and defeated them and destroyed all except the king and the best of the flocks. He intended to use the animals to offer sacrifice to God, which is always a good thing, right? Not in this case. Samuel tells him that obedience is what God wants. Obedience was required under the old law, and it is required under the NT as well. The point James is making in chapter 2 is that all the faith in the world is useless without obedience. Hebrews 10 tells us that those who disobeyed under Moses’ law were put to death. Does it make sense that God would not care what we do when He has given His son to die for us to redeem us from our sins? Wouldn’t it make sense that a greater degree of punishment should be expected if we don’t turn awat from sin and obey Him? Obedience is mentioned in numerous verses in the NT, and it is talking about more than faith. In almost all of the epistles, people are admonished to obey and are warned about falling away or being lost. Why would it be necessary to do this if faith only was acceptable? I admit, faith only is a comforting thought and would make things very convenient and easy. To believe in God and do what I want is certainly appealing–unfortunately it is not a scriptural concept. I must faithfully follow God’s commands or my religion is in vain.
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Obedience to God’s OT Law was in no way expected to be followed. God foreknew what all of mankind would do long before the Law was even in place. Obedience was not required, it never was. Proof: King David practically broke every one of the 618 laws. Why wasn’t David then disqualified from kingship? Because his heart was right with God. Much of the historical scriptures (I & II Samuel) show this, and more importantly the Psalms prove this far beyond a reasonable doubt. God always has, is, and will look at the heart of an individual man above all else. And this is why salvation is by faith alone; it is the only spiritual barometer that matters–everything else can be mimicked (i.e. baptism, good works, a profession of faith)
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If obedience wasn’t expected, why did God force the Israelites to wander in the wilderness for 40 years? Why did Israel tend to see periods of peace and prosperity when they were (for the most part) serving God? Why were they invaded when they fell away?
And I really don’t know where you get that idea about David. There was the business with Bathsheba, and he definitely made some mistakes with his children. But he also suffered for those things. You are right in saying that he was a man after God’s own heart, and as you said, it wasn’t shown by perfect living; however, his the state of his heart was manifested by his attempts to correct and repent of everything he ever did wrong.
If David hadn’t repented of his sins, then he would have been just like King Saul. And just like Saul, the kingdom would have been taken from him.
Obedience was absolutely expected by God – perfection was not, and I think you might be confusing the two.
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For that matter, why would God have given the law at all if He never expected anyone to follow it?
You have all touched on this before, but I just wanted to reiterate that true faith will lead to obedience. Take Noah, for example. Hebrews 11 tells us that Noah built the ark by faith. Even though Noah had never seen rain, his faith led him to obey God by building the ark. Imagine that instead of demonstrating his faith through obedience to God’s command, Noah had sat back and told God, “I believe in you and I believe that you’ll destroy the world with water and I know that you’ve told me to build a boat, but I’m not going to… You can save me some other way.” Is that really faith? People essentially do the same thing when they read in the New Testament that we are to hear (Rom 10:17), believe (Heb 11:6), repent (Acts 2:38), confess (Rom 10:9-10), be baptized (1 Pet 3:21), and live a faithful, obedient life (Rev. 2:10) and the refuse to do so, basically telling God “You can save me on faith alone.” If God has told us to do something, we shoud do it. If we don’t comply with His commands, how can we honestly say that we believe in Him and love Him?
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Ryley,
Would a true believer actually sit back and not comply with God’s commands? No, for the exact reason you stated, ignoring God’s commands just shows that our conversion is not real. Hence, only true believers are going to follow those commands. This is why faith alone saves us, everything else is an outcropping of faith.
Nate,
I think your forgetting Hebrews 10:1, “For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.” Now yes, I understand this verse specifically mentions sacrifices, but the focus is on the entire law.
The law was a shadow of what was to come… you see this throughout the Bible. For instance, the wilderness laws were set up to keep the wandering Israelites alive and to point toward a permanent temple (i.e. the tabernacle laws were a shadow of the temple laws). The same is true of the temple laws, which were a shadow of Christ who fulfilled the law. The former always paved the way for the latter.
As for obedience, key verse: Deuteronomy 1:6, “The LORD your God spake unto us in Horeb, saying Ye have dwelt long enough in this mount.” They wandered for 40 years because God was teaching them how to follow and obey Him. They did not know nor understand, it took 40 years to teach them and even then all we see in the OT is failure after failure. The purpose of the law was not for them to obey, it was to show the Jews their need for a savior. It was not possible, even theoretically, for a Jew to keep the law; the law could never save.
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Stewart: If you will read further in Hebrews 10, you will see that a remembrance was made each year of the sins of the people, and it was necessary for the animal sacrifices to be repeated until the death of Christ, as His blood is what takes away sin. We are told in the New Testament how we can come in contact with that blood. It is not through faith alone, although faith is a part of it. It is through baptism that we actually come in contact with the blood of Christ, so it too is part of what God requires of us to receive salvation from our sins. If you are saying that an obedient faith, encompassing all that God has commanded us to do, is what saves us, then I could agree. However, the bible doesn’t support a claim that faith alone, without obedience, saves anyone.
God promised Abraham that He would give Abraham’s decendants a land of promise in Genesis 12. Whaen the Children of Israel are led from Egypt by Moses, God tells them He is going to give them a land, the same land that was promised to Abraham. Even though this land is a gift, there are requirements that had to be met in order for the promise to be fulfilled. God said he would fight their battles for them, but He still required them to have an army and to enter into the battle. He gave them the land, but they had to enter it. conquer it, and possesses it, and remain faithful to Him. The book of Dueteronimy, especilly the last few chapters, recout the promises of God and the conditions imopsed on His people in order for them to receive them. They would be punished if they failed to obey God’s commands, or Laws. Sin itself is defined as a transgression of God’s law. Therefore, if God has told me to do something, and I don’t do it, I have transgressed God’s law, I have sin, and if I don’t fiollow His law in correcting this, I have separated myself from God and I will be lost for eternity.
The bible is simple and logical. We understand in our society that we have laws and they must be obeyed or we will receive some sort of punishment. Hebrews 10 says that those who disobeyed the Law of Moses were put to death. The rhetorical question is then asked “how much sorer punishment suppose you to be worthy who have trodden under foot the son of God”? The answer is clear. Since God has given His son for us, and is the only sacrifice whereby we can receive remission of sins, then if I do not obey the Law of Christ, or the New Testament, I can expect to spend eternity in hell. I am not earning my salvation, but like the Israelites of old, I am complying with the requirements of God as God has commanded.
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Stewart, just to answer your point, I do understand that the Old Law was given as a “shadow” of the things to come; as was mentioned earlier, the blood of bulls and goats couldn’t wash away sin. The law was given to teach the Israelites (and the rest of us) who God is and how he should be treated, but you’re absolutely right in saying the law was never given to save – it couldn’t because we couldn’t follow it perfectly. It set the stage for Christ to come, who could save us by his sacrifice and the grace of God.
But that doesn’t mean that the Old Law wasn’t given for the Israelites to follow. It was still a law. And even though they couldn’t keep it perfectly, they were required to live by it to the best of their ability. As you read through the Old Testament, you see that they were punished whenever they stopped trying to follow the law. David was a man after God’s own heart because he always tried to serve God, even though he didn’t always succeed. But when people willfully turned away (worshipping the golden calf, complaining in the wilderness, usurping Moses’ authority, engaging in sexual immorality) they were punished. That shows me that God held them accountable for their own actions, and held them accountable for what was written in the law.
Just because we now know that God never intended that law to save them doesn’t mean that they weren’t still bound by it.
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Stewart,
I don’t know why I didn’t think of these points earlier, but we were studying tonight and ran across some passages that fit our discussion on “eternal security” perfectly.
I’m sure you know the parable of the wise and foolish virgins found in Matt 25:1-13, but I would encourage you to read it again. Notice that all 10 virgins were waiting at the door for the wedding feast. In other words, all these people were prepared. But some weren’t prepared for the long-haul. When they were found wanting, they weren’t allowed in.
How else can we interpret this passage, other than to understand that though some of us may be ready right now (in other words, we have salvation), if we aren’t prepared for the “long-haul,” we won’t maintain that salvation?
The other passages concern the “seven churches in Asia” written about in Revelation 2-3. Notice the following verses:
2:5 – “Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place – unless you repent.”
2:16 – “Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.”
2:25 – “hold fast what you have till I come.”
3:3-4 – “Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.”
Notice how only those who haven’t yet defiled their garments will walk with Christ in white. Apparently, the others won’t.
3:11 – “Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.”
According to this passage, it sounds like if we don’t hold fast, then we’ll lose our crown.
Throughout those two chapters, it’s strikingly clear that only those who remain faithful to Christ will actually be saved. Hebrews 12 is another great passage to read that relates to this topic.
Looking forward to hearing back from you…
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Matt,
I would agree with your interpretation of the Parable of the Virgins, yet that does not mean it supports either of our views either way.
The answer one arrives at with that parable is solely based off of other passages and our interpretations there. Same is true of Revelation or any other passage in the Bible. Think about it this way, you are saying that loss of the crown is equivalent of loss of salvation. I would take a less metaphorical approach and equate the loss of the crown to the loss of a literal treasure… here on earth we are to store up our treasures in heaven… therefore, holding fast to the faith is equated with our future treasures in heaven. Basically, we have two differing views which are equally valid; the answer we personally hold to are based off our belief in salvation and the possible loss thereof.
Anyway, instead of discussing these extant passages dealing with the subject we honestly should be only talking about the passages which specifically deal with that topic. Texts like John 10:29 and Romans 8:37-39, practically the entire book of 1 John (which we have yet to really discuss), and other passages are integral to the discussion. Passages which only gloss over salvation or are ambiguous don’t help and only clutter the conversation.
Lastly, there are things to remember about salvation which I believe strongly lean this discussion in my favor:
1) Salvation is a gracious act of God
2) Salvation is an eternally effecting condition:
3) Salvation is a past event (see Luke 7:50; 1 Corinthians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 2:15; and 2 Timothy 1:9)
4) Salvation presently is accomplished in us (see John 17:17; Romans 6:14; 8:2; Galatians 5:16; and Philippians 2:12–13)
5) Salvation is fully realized in the future (see Romans 13:11; Ephesians 5:25–27; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:3–5; and 1 John 3:1–2).
Therefore, salvation is assured simply due to God’s unchanging character.
I’ll leave you with Philippians 1:3-6, “I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ”
We are called to be confident that God will finish what he started. If you hold that salvation is not able to be lost, there are no theological loop holes to jump through. If you believe salvation could be lost, you now need to explain away why Paul can say he is confident in something that could be taken away…
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Nate, please accept my appologies… the above should have been addressed to you.
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