A little while back, I found a post on this blog that I decided to answer. He quoted this passage in Hebrews (as I have done below) and asked if anyone had thoughts on what it meant. Of course, I did, and I felt like they were pretty well reasoned. No one ever responded to my comment, so I thought I would repost it here, to see if any of you would like to.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. – Hebrews 6:4-6
This is definitely a difficult passage. Hebrews 10:26-30 is a little clearer in my opinion.
But basically, does this passage sound like Christians can fall away from God? From salvation? And if they do, does it further mean that they can never get that relationship back??
Well, I do absolutely believe that Christians can fall away and lose their salvation. Again, the passage in Hebrews 10 teaches that plainly – it talks about one who “was sanctified” looking forward to a “fearful expectation of judgment.”
But I don’t think that means we can never be forgiven. Romans 11:19-24 talks about this subject by comparing Christians to the branches of an olive tree. Those who were Jews and had rejected Christ, were cut off from God. But Paul tells the Gentiles not to be haughty, because if the Jews could have been cut off, the Gentiles could be as well, if they turned away. And then, if they repented, they could be “grafted” back in.
So even if we can fall from God’s grace, he will accept us back with loving arms when we see the error of our way. The parable of the Prodigal Son shows us exactly that.
I think Hebrews 6 is making the same point, and when it says “it is impossible to renew them to repentance,” I think it’s saying that as long as those Christians continue in sin, there’s no sacrifice for them… in other words, they can’t be saved while hanging on to that sin. Like Paul says in Romans 6:1-2, if we’ve died to sin, how can we continue in it? That’s the life that we are to put off, when we become Christians.
So as long as we refuse to give up sinful things, we can’t be “renewed again to repentance” because we mock the sacrifice that Christ made for us. As Hebrews 10 says, we “trample the Son of God under foot and count the blood of the covenant by which we were sanctified a common thing.”
Finding Truth 
Stewart, Paul could be confident in his salvation because he knew that he had “fought the good fight.” The very fact that he refers to the Godly lifestyle as a fight should tell us something…. It is a struggle, and our actions DO matter. Even Paul would lose his salvation if he failed to comply with God’s commands and refused to repent of his shortcomings. However, after living an obedient life before God, Paul knew that he was ready and was able to look forward to his reward.
And yes, salvation IS a gracious act of God. In fact, the mere opportunity to be saved is a gracious act of God. God is faithful and will save those who comply with His requirements, but if someone refuses to obey him and remain faithful to Him, that person cannot continue to expect God’s salvation. I guess my point is that God has already provided the means for our salvation (of which baptism is a part, as pointed out previously). Is that not enough?
This is by no means a thorough response, but I just wanted to get those thoughts out there. Sorry if this is a bit disjointed… Those pesky customers keep interrupting me. 🙂
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Ryley,
I whole heartedly agree that our actions matter. I would say that we are to bring glory to God through our actions (1 Corinthians 10:31 is the key verse), but that does not mean we can loose our salvation. A shipwrecked faith is possible, lost salvation is not; and that is the struggle Paul refers to.
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Stewart’
I agree with most of what you said about salvation, however you have a couple of premises that do not agree with scripture. Paul, in I corinthians 9, is saying that he could be lost if he didn’t struggle daily to serve God acceptably. Phillipians 1:3-6 is telling us that God keeps His promises and we can obtain them if we obey Him. Hebrews 5:9 tell us that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY Him.
You said that “a shipwrecked faith is possible, lost salvation is not, and that is the struggle Paul refers to”. What? Haven’t you been saying that faith only saves you? If shipwrecked faith and being lost is not the same, then how can you claim faith has anything to do with salvation? I timothy 1:19 talks of some who had made shipwreck of their faith, and verse 20 says they were to be turned over to satan. Jesus said in Matthew that we cannor serve 2 masters, yet you seem to be saying that we can.
It is interesting to note here that the only passage in the NT where “faith alone” or “faith only” is talked about is in James 2. Here it says plainly that faith alone doesn’t save. As a matter of fact, if you read the chapter carefully, you will see that verse 22 tells us that works are required to make faith complete. We can say confidently then that without works to accompany my faith, I cannot receive salvetion. Logically we can also claim that if at some point I stop serving God acceptably, I will lose my salvation (because I am no longer meeting the requirements of it).
Fortunately we don’t have to rely on human logic, but God has told us this very thing. 2 Peter is a chapter that is addressing Christians, and notice what is said here. Specifically, in verse 15 the comparison is made to Balaam, and he says there are those who have “forsaken the right way, and are gone astray”. Obviously, to forsake and go astray means we have left the service of God. Verses 20-22 tell us that we can become entangled in the world again after leaving it, and the results will be worse than if we had never obeyed God to begin with. 2 Peter 3:17 talks about “being led away by the error of the wicked”. How can we be led away if we cannot lose our salvation?
You make the claim, and rightfully so, that God’s character doesn’t change. However, your views are not consistant with your statement. In the old testament, God punished the disobedient among His children. If His character remains the same, He will punish the disobedient among His children today. I Corinthians 10:12 says we should be careful–we can fall from favor with God, thereby losing our salvation.
Stewart, it seems to me you have accepted a couple of erroneous premises and are examining the scripture from them. If you look objectively at the NT you will find that it teaches compliance with the commands of God, and our salvation is dependant on obedience to God.
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Jim,
Never does James say that works are required for salvation… the closest he comes is stating that works justify a man. Justification is not salvation, they are two unique terms.
Being justified means that we are a new creation… hence, our works prove, or work out, our salvation.
Being justified means that we are made righteous (2 Corinthians 5:21) and are perfected forever (Hebrews 10:14).
“Justification causes no one to be righteous. It is not the bestowment as such of righteousness. It rather proclaims one to be justified whom God sees as perfected in His Son. Therefore, this may be stated as the correct formula of justification: The sinner becomes righteous in God’s sight when he is in Christ; he is justified by God freely, or without a cause, because thereby he is righteous in His sight.” – L.S. Chafer.
I find Romans 8:29-30 an interesting passage: “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”
At the point of salvation, every aspect of the above passage is true. It is an all encompassing package… one cannot be predestined without also being glorified.
My point is, there is no where in the entire Bible where you see that this package is lost or taken away. Justification is never lost, one cannot ever be unpredestined, or loose glorification.
There is a reason why faith is the only necessity to salvation; faith embodies selflessness. Works are all about what I can do, my motivation behind a good work could be anything from pleasing my God (which would be proper) to looking good to the world (which would be improper). Faith is the only selfless measure of a person possible.
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Look,
It comes down to this: if God did choose faith alone as the only measure of salvation we must ask ourselves why? The answer is simple, faith is the only way to measure selflessness; everything else is rooted in self, our abilities, and our pride. Faith alone IS the only viable measure of true conversion.
Second, Romans 8:29-30 is highly important to our discussion:
“And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”
Each of the above aspects are true at the point of salvation; there is no order of salvation, if you are glorified you are undeniably called. It is impossible to be predestined without being justified. There is no place in scripture where we find a predestined person not predestined anymore… never is one uncalled, or unjustified. There is no scriptural foundation for loss of salvation.
I will state it again, a shipwrecked faith is not the same as loosing salvation.
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Stewart,
I believe that IF God had chosen faith alone as the only measure of salvation, He would have plainly told us so. I also believe there would not be the emphasis on obedience that we find throughout the Bible. If we are saved by faith alone, then obedience to the Commands of God (other than having faith) is not required. Where does the bible teach that ignoring God’s commands is pleasing to him? Does this even make sense?
You state that a shipwrecked faith is not the same as losing salvation. What is it then? What are the NT passages that support this?
Why can’t you just accept what the Bible plainly states about being saved? In comment #22 you asked for a single scripture that required something in addition to faith for salvation. A multitude of scripture has been pointed out by several commenters, yet you still hold blindly to the premise that “Faith only saves”. Faith saves, but saying “faith only” saves is no more correct than saying “baptism only” saves or “confession only” saves. Matthew 7:21 tells us we must DO the will of God, not just belive in it.
What it really comes down to is this, we must OBEY from the heart what God has told us to do, which begins with faith, and proceeds on with obedience to all of God’s commands (see Romans 6).
I implore you to look at the NT with an open mind. I have been enjoying the dialogue on this issue, but the intent is for us to all come to a better understanding of what God would have us do so that we can make it to heaven. Hopefully this process will help us to examine our beliefs in light of what the scriptures say and act accordingly.
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Well, I typed up a long reply only to have it disappear. 😦
Stewart, first of all, I think you and I might hold some differing opinions about predestination and being “called out.” I think I’ll do a post about the subject, so keep an eye out for it if you’re interested.
I think you’d agree that for Christians, the Old Testament was given to teach us about God (Gal 3). In it, we see where God demanded sincere service, where he deserved and demanded the best, where actions had consequences, and where disobedience led to punishment. But it seems to me, that you think that God doesn’t act that way today. If so, how does OT serve as an example for us? And wouldn’t that mean that God is NOT the same yesterday, today, and forever?
Think about the Israelites. Moses led them to inherit the “Promised Land,” but when they turned away – when they refused to enter because they lost their faith in God – God sent them away. They all wandered in the wilderness for 40 years until that generation passed away. What a fantastic example for our relationship with God today! We are God’s people (Christians), and we can expect to enter our “Promised Land” of heaven. But if we turn away from God – if we put something else before him – then we forfeit our chance of inheriting our “Promised Land” just like the Israelites did.
You’ve impressed me as being someone that holds extreme reverence for God’s word, as someone who longs to do the right thing no matter what it might be, simply because “God says so.” But to be completely candid with you, I don’t think you are looking at this issue as clearly as you do some of the other ones. God’s plan of salvation was meant to be understood simply. Just think about those who tended to follow Jesus: fishermen, farmers, peasants, etc. Most of them were not extremely educated, and they didn’t have to be. The message is simple. If we will put away whatever preconceived ideas we might hold about God’s word and simply read it for what it says, then the truth will be evident.
What does his word teach?
Is there any passage that says faith alone saves us? No; however, there are plenty that teach us faith is definitely required for salvation. Some passages teach that baptism is necessary for salvation (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21), but none of them teach baptism alone. Other passages teach about repentance (Acts 2:38, 2 Pet 3:9) and confession (Rom 10:9-10) are necessary for salvation, but neither of them are said to do it alone.
In truth, all of those things are necessary. God’s grace is what actually saves us (Eph 2:8-9) through Christ’s sacrifice. But before he will give it to us, we must have sincere faith in Christ. And that sincere faith will cause us to repent of our past sins and live a life of service to him; therefore, we’ll gladly confess our belief and then subject ourselves in baptism to wash away our sins, allowing us to rise (as Christ rose from the grave) to live a new life in service to him (Romans 6:3-4). At that point, we receive the salvation that Christ has already paid for and that God offers to all who come. We didn’t have to work for it; we merely had to accept it.
And if we later fall away from service to God – if we decide to put other things before him, then we can no longer hope to live eternally with him in heaven. As he told the Children of Israel long ago, “you shall have no other gods before me” (Ex 20:3). God won’t accept second place, and we shouldn’t expect him to.
Please, look at those things. Think about the whole message of God’s word.
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Stewart,
I’m sorry, all your comments didn’t show up when I typed my response, but let me address one other issue. James 2:14 introduces the idea of faith, works, and salvation. From the context of the passage, salvation and justification are definately related, and appear to be the same. I don’t believe the bible teaches that I can be saved without being justified or vice-versa. We are either servants of God or servants of sin. There is no middle ground.
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I agree with that. The Bible has only ever talked about two types of people. Those who are saved and those who are lost. Salvation, justification, sanctification, etc, are all things used to talk about Christians, God’s chosen people. Every one else is lost. If you aren’t sanctified, or set apart by God, then you aren’t saved, and vice versa. If you aren’t justified, then you aren’t saved, and vice versa.
There is no 3rd group that’s somewhere in between.
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Well at least we all agree on something 😀
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If you agree with those last couple of comments, then what conclusion does that bring you to on “once saved always saved”? Because as we’ve all seen, Hebrews 10:26-31 says that one who has been sanctified, but turns away, will be lost?
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As for the rest,
Just briefly I’ll comment about my beliefs and the God of the OT.
Nate, you stated:
“I think you’d agree that for Christians, the Old Testament was given to teach us about God (Gal 3). In it, we see where God demanded sincere service, where he deserved and demanded the best, where actions had consequences, and where disobedience led to punishment. But it seems to me, that you think that God doesn’t act that way today. If so, how does OT serve as an example for us? And wouldn’t that mean that God is NOT the same yesterday, today, and forever?”
1) Yes, I would agree that the OT was given to teach us about God.
2) Yes, I agree with your overview no how God acted; however I disagree on WHY God acted that way (see below)
3) No, I believe God did act the same as He did then (see below)
4) The OT serves as an example in multiple ways, the historical account of Israel’s continuous disobedience is only one aspect of the greater whole.
5) God is unchanging, we do agree here as well.
Ok, where my view differs from yours is specifically on why God acted the way He did in the OT. I would say that God’s Law was not about obedience… it was all about grace. The Law according to Romans 7 was to teach about sin, in fact Paul says that it made sin abound.
So why do I say the law is grace? Think about it this way, we know the difference between right and wrong regardless if someone has told us… this is our conscience. It is an aspect of humanity that we all have (granted some have seared consciences). I can prove this by a simple illustration, if a young child is jumping on a sofa and their parent walks in the room, they will stop; even if they have never been told not to jump on furniture. So the parent now lays down the law, a rule that has always had a consequence even if not previously known. Not jumping on furniture is good for many reasons, one of which is protection of the jumping child. The same is true of the Mosaic Law, even before the Law was given the Israelites knew they were not to do certain things. The Law was given for their protection (among other reasons). For this reason the Law is a manifestation of God’s grace to His chosen people.
A child follows their parent out of love, a disobedient child is still loved. The same is true of Israel and their relation to God. And this is exactly why faith alone saves… selfless love for God is the purest form of faith; and this is why we obey His commands. Not because we have to, but because we love Him. The same was true of Israel… God is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow. All He has ever asked of us is to place Him first in our lives; and this is why not all Israel will be called Israel (the whole point of Romans 9-11).
I think that might clarify my view better than before.
Oh and Ephesians 2:8-9 yes teaches that we are saved by grace; but grace is on God’s side alone… faith is the aspect we add in. Therefore, saved by grace (what God does) through faith (what we do)… is the only way to heaven. Lastly, verse 9 does say not through works… and physical water baptism undeniably is a work of man; which is why I believe baptism is what a believer does after salvation, it is a step of trust and obedience rooted in love of the God who has now graciously given you a new life.
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Not everyone’s conscience works in the same way. Some people feel things are sinful that others think are perfectly fine. Just look at the different cultures in the world today. That’s why 1 Cor 8-10 and Romans 14 talk about considering one another’s conscience – the things listed there are things that offended some people, but not others. And having two small children, I also have to disagree with you on your point about jumping on the couch. Very young children do all kinds of things, whether their parents are there or not, that they shouldn’t do, and they won’t understand that they shouldn’t do it until they’ve been told.
And the Old Law was definitely something that was supposed to be followed. You’re right in saying that all God really wanted was to be loved and placed in the highest priority, but if the Israelites had done that, then they would have followed the law more closely than they did. Galatians 5:3 and James 2:10 both point out that the Old Law was something that was supposed to be kept perfectly. That the only way to be justified through the law was perfection.
Obviously, that’s something that is impossible for us, and that’s why Christ’s sacrifice was so necessary. The Old Law was given to point toward grace, not be grace. The Old Law was given as a contrast to what we have now, in that God knows we won’t live perfectly. However, that doesn’t give us free reign to live as we’d like now; the NT is very clear about how we are to live our lives serving God. His grace covers us in the areas that we lack.
God is the same because he wants to be given first place in our lives, as you said. But he’s also the same in that he expects sincere obedience. Don’t make the mistake of thinking obedience is optional under either law.
Finally, I understand that you think baptism is a “work” performed after salvation based on Eph 2:8-9, but there are many other passages that say that’s not the case. In order for the Bible to keep its harmony, those passages must be considered.
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Could the Israelites be justified by the Law?
Also, I strongly agree that grace does not give us free reign to do what we want. In fact I would claim that grace teaches us not to do that which is contrary to our fleshly desires.
Also, I would agree that obedience is not optional. But people obey due to their love of God. What I am saying is that the giving of the Law was not about obedience, I’m saying there is a bigger picture; i.e. grace.
How does Romans 10:9-11 fit in to your theology of salvation, for neither baptism or good deeds are mentioned?
“That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
Seems to me that the sole requirement is faith… believing on Him.
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Sorry it’s taken so long for me to get back to you.
But to answer your question, Romans 10:9-10 fits in fine with my beliefs. I absolutely believe that confession and faith are necessary for salvation.
Where you and I differ is in my acceptance of passages that teach repentance and baptism are just as necessary. Your view doesn’t allow for that; therefore, a contradiction occurs.
The goal is for the Bible to make sense in a cohesive whole. The stories we read about God in the Old Testament teach us that he expects reverence and that disobedience brings consequences. Those lessons apply to us today. Furthermore, it makes sense that God would have given us some things we must do (baptism, etc) to illustrate our faith in order for us to receive salvation. Again, we have many Old Testament examples that teach us that: Abraham offering Isaac, Naaman dipping 7 times in the Jordan, etc.
You said, “Seems to me that the sole requirement is faith… believing on Him,” and yet the very passage you quote actually lists two things: faith and confession. While one is dependant upon the other, they are still separate things.
As James 2 tells us, “faith without works is dead.”
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Nate,
Good points; also I believe we are beginning to understand each other’s points of view.
Therefore, I have a question:
Can a person repent of their sins without first trusting Christ as their personal Lord and Savior?
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Not truly. In a worldly sense of the word, someone can “repent” in that they feel sorry about something, and might even change their behavior.
But repentance in the Bible refers to a decision (and follow-through) to change based on a faith in Christ. I imagine that’s something you’d agree with me on…
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Exactly, I completely agree that in repentance as defined in Scriptures is not possible without faith in Christ. Also, you are correct in distinguishing the different connotations connected to the word, while most people do take repentance to infer agony of sin or wrongdoing; the actual definition of the word reflects a change of mind. This in no way removes the often accompanying grief; but grief or sorrow is not the focus — the reversal of mind is.
I would state 1 thessalonians 1:9-10 as a great illustration of repentance:
“For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.”
Anyway, this theological truth makes repentance an outcropping of faith. Repentance occurs as a result of faith; therefore, repentance is not a requirement for salvation. Whenever a text refers to repent and be saved, faith must be assumed to have taken place prior to salvation. I assume you would agree with this, but feel free to correct me.
My point is, certain aspects (such as repentance) are outcroppings of faith placed in Jesus.
Would you place obedience to Christ as a result of faith? Or is it possible to obey Him apart from salvation? What about good works?
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Maybe you’re right; maybe we are finally getting down to the basic elements of what we both believe.
I agree with you that true repentance is an outcropping of faith. But I think you have to be careful with conclusions like this one: “Repentance occurs as a result of faith; therefore, repentance is not a requirement for salvation.” To clear up my meaning, let me illustrate it in the following way:
Without gasoline, you can’t start a car (well, most cars anyway…). When you turn the ignition switch, the spark plug ignites the gasoline, and your car starts. So, if I make the statement, “You must turn the ignition switch in order to start your car,” we shouldn’t take it and say that since the car must have gas in order for the ignition switch to work, then it’s really only the gas that starts the car. After all, if you have a full tank of gas, but don’t turn the switch, that car’s not going to start.
In the same way, if we have passages that tell us we must repent in order to be saved, we can’t look at them and say, “Well, it’s really only the faith that matters,” since we know that faith is what causes repentance. Instead, we must understand that both are necessary.
Take the example you gave in 1 Thess 1. I agree that true repentance is shown here in that the Thessalonians turned from idols. However, if they had faith, but had never turned from the idols, would they have been saved? I don’t think so. However, if we deny that repentance has anything to do with salvation, then they would have been.
My belief is this: We are afforded the opportunity for salvation solely based on God’s grace. That’s what saves us, and what enables salvation at all. But he’s also told us that to receive that salvation we must have faith. And that faith drives us to repent, confess Jesus as the Christ, and be baptized for the remission of our sins. While God’s grace gives us that opportunity, and while our faith is what drives us to do it, the Bible teaches that all of those things are necessary to receive salvation.
To answer your last questions though, yes, I do believe it’s possible to do good works without faith. And the individual who does that has no hope of eternal salvation, because “without faith, it is impossible to please him.” But that doesn’t mean that one who has faith but no works is any more pleasing to God, because “faith without works is dead.”
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Nate,
Your last paragraph hit the proverbial nail right on the head. I would say that good works weeds out true faith from merely claimed faith.
Anyway, how can you agree with me that repentance is a result, or outcropping, of faith and at the same time claim both repentance and faith are required for salvation? It can only be one or the other.
Placing faith in Christ causes you to realize your sinful nature and in response repent. Furthermore, it is the Holy Spirit who works in us to create a new creation.
As for your comment on 1 Thessalonians, you are completely forgetting about progressive sanctification. If the Thessalonians did not turn from idols they still would be saved and God would be working in them to repent–reverse their minds–and turn away from that sin. This happens all the time, a Christians’ walk with God strengthens over time. Many of our habitual sins fade away, some take 20 years, and others never do. But that is the life of a Christian, and God’s glory is shown through our weaknesses and His help in overcoming sin and sanctifying our lives.
Under your theology we cannot ever know if we are going to heaven or not; for I could possibly loose my salvation. 1 John was written so that we may know we are saved!!! and that we may comfort in that fact!!! (see 1 John 1:1-4 and 5:13)
Lastly, being assured of my salvation does not mean that I can abuse God’s grace and do whatever I want; for Scripture does not teach that. Grace teaches me not live a worldly life; and being assured of my salvation makes me want to go out and proclaim it to the world.
The good news has come to all, and no one (not even myself) can remove me as chosen child of god.
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“Anyway, how can you agree with me that repentance is a result, or outcropping, of faith and at the same time claim both repentance and faith are required for salvation? It can only be one or the other.”
Why do you say that? Where are we told that God requires only one thing from us? I can point you to many passages that talk about faith, repentance, confession, baptism, living a godly life, being kind and hospitable to one another, etc. And all of them speak as though whether or not we do those things will affect our eternal status.
“As for your comment on 1 Thessalonians, you are completely forgetting about progressive sanctification. If the Thessalonians did not turn from idols they still would be saved and God would be working in them to repent–reverse their minds–and turn away from that sin. “
No, I do understand that we are not perfect and never will be. I know that God only expects us to do our best (which includes growing). But idolatry is not the same thing as someone who has dedicated themselves to God, but still struggles in some areas. Someone engaged in idolatry hasn’t tried to put God first.
In Acts 2, Peter told those gathered at Pentecost that to be saved they had to do two things: repent of their sins and be baptized. If they had not repented, their salvation would not have been genuine (and remember, they were repenting of putting Jesus to death – their repentance was absolutely necessary). Their faith had already been realized, since we’re told they were “cut to the heart” and then asked Peter what they should do. Those who were really convicted would have obeyed Peter’s commands and been saved. Those who didn’t obey weren’t. It’s really that simple.
“Under your theology we cannot ever know if we are going to heaven or not; for I could possibly loose my salvation. 1 John was written so that we may know we are saved!!! and that we may comfort in that fact!!! (see 1 John 1:1-4 and 5:13)”
I agree with you that part of the message of 1 John was to give Christians confidence in their salvation. Some of Paul’s epistles did the same thing. But being confident of something doesn’t mean you’re irrevocably in that state.
For instance, I’m confident that I’m 28 years old. But I won’t be forever. I’m confident that I’m a Jimi Hendrix fan. But my tastes could one day change.
As long as we are truly serving God to the best of our abilities, we can be confident that we are saved. But if we aren’t doing our best, or if we’ve turned away after something else, then we lose that confidence, because we’re no longer upholding our end of the covenant that God has established with us.
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”[e] and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” – 2 Pet 20-22
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[e] says the Lord.[f] And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”[g] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. – Heb 10:26-31
15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears. – Heb 12:15-17
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God expects service. He shows us that over and over again. When the Children of Israel turned their nose up at the Promised Land, they were forced to wander in the wilderness for 40 years. God didn’t accept sacrifices that were blemished – they had to be the best. When Nadab and Abihu offered something other than what God had wanted, they were killed for it.
God loves us. But he is also just. He has given us a way to be forgiven of our many sins; he has given us a way to be pleasing to him. But that doesn’t mean that he will save us regardless of how we treat him or the sacrifice of his son. As Christ said, “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.” Our Savior must come first. If he doens’t, then we can’t expect to receive the reward he offers. We don’t have to give perfect service, but we have to serve (and strive for perfection), nonetheless.
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[I] As for your comment on 1 Thessalonians, you are completely forgetting about progressive sanctification. If the Thessalonians did not turn from idols they still would be saved and God would be working in them to repent–reverse their minds–and turn away from that sin. This happens all the time, a Christians’ walk with God strengthens over time. Many of our habitual sins fade away, some take 20 years, and others never do. But that is the life of a Christian, and God’s glory is shown through our weaknesses and His help in overcoming sin and sanctifying our lives.[/I]
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Stewart,
I meant to quote you in the above post, i’m not sure what happened. Anyhow, on to my point.
Where do you get this idea of progressive sanctification? What scripture do you have to suggest that one can go on sinning turning their backs on God, worshiping idols and still be saved? Not to sound mean, but come on, that doesn’t make any sense at all. That contridicts so much scripture that deals with our walk with God its crazy.
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Think about it this way,
When you were saved did you stop sinning? No.
Do you still sin X years later? Yes
Why? Because sanctification is a process we are slowly moving from point A to point Z.
In the technical sense there are three distinct aspects to sanctification:
1) Positionally through Christ’s shed blood Christians are sanctified. This does not mean we are perfect only in a positional relationship with God we are seen as Holy. This aspect of the doctrine of sanctification is found in passages such as Romans 12:1, Ephesians 4:1, and Colossians 3:1 among others.
2) Yet sanctification carries with it another aspect which I’ll call experimental. Where our positional sanctification is associated with a one time event (namely our salvation), experimental sanctification deals with our everyday walk. On one level it is our willingness to follow God Paul mentions this also in Romans 12:1 when he notes, “it is your reasonable service.” Also in Romans 6 and 7 where Paul discusses the war going on with in his very flesh. Why else would John write “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not” (1 John 2:1-2) to a church of saved individuals. Basically both these apostles are getting at the fact that Christ died to free you from sin… so why are you still sinning? That question leads us directly into the final aspect.
3) Sanctification is the result of Christian growth. We are to “grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 3:18) and approach God with an “unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord” (2 Corinthians 3:18). This transformation is the result of progressive sanctification; a Christian may be blameless before God, but he is sure not faultless.
Sanctification is not complete until a believer is in glory with Christ.
As for your other question, I am not saying that a person who continues to worship false Gods is saved. Remember that an idol is anything that one places ahead of God in their life, an idol could be anything that draws proper attention from God. In this respect we all have idols in our lives and turn our backs of God; for some its money, for others its blogging instead of reading the scriptures (for this very reason I try and limit my internet time). What I am saying is that God continues to work in a believer from spiritual baby steps till perfection in glory.
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