A little while back, I found a post on this blog that I decided to answer. He quoted this passage in Hebrews (as I have done below) and asked if anyone had thoughts on what it meant. Of course, I did, and I felt like they were pretty well reasoned. No one ever responded to my comment, so I thought I would repost it here, to see if any of you would like to.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. – Hebrews 6:4-6
This is definitely a difficult passage. Hebrews 10:26-30 is a little clearer in my opinion.
But basically, does this passage sound like Christians can fall away from God? From salvation? And if they do, does it further mean that they can never get that relationship back??
Well, I do absolutely believe that Christians can fall away and lose their salvation. Again, the passage in Hebrews 10 teaches that plainly – it talks about one who “was sanctified” looking forward to a “fearful expectation of judgment.”
But I don’t think that means we can never be forgiven. Romans 11:19-24 talks about this subject by comparing Christians to the branches of an olive tree. Those who were Jews and had rejected Christ, were cut off from God. But Paul tells the Gentiles not to be haughty, because if the Jews could have been cut off, the Gentiles could be as well, if they turned away. And then, if they repented, they could be “grafted” back in.
So even if we can fall from God’s grace, he will accept us back with loving arms when we see the error of our way. The parable of the Prodigal Son shows us exactly that.
I think Hebrews 6 is making the same point, and when it says “it is impossible to renew them to repentance,” I think it’s saying that as long as those Christians continue in sin, there’s no sacrifice for them… in other words, they can’t be saved while hanging on to that sin. Like Paul says in Romans 6:1-2, if we’ve died to sin, how can we continue in it? That’s the life that we are to put off, when we become Christians.
So as long as we refuse to give up sinful things, we can’t be “renewed again to repentance” because we mock the sacrifice that Christ made for us. As Hebrews 10 says, we “trample the Son of God under foot and count the blood of the covenant by which we were sanctified a common thing.”
Finding Truth 
I basically agree with your last comment. Simply put, it’s this: God expects our best. We are not perfect, but we are to continually grow in knowledge and behavior. We’ll never reach perfection, but that should always be our goal.
Included in that is repentance of sins when we err, and changing our behaviors when we gain better understanding of what God wants of us.
The difference between us, is that I believe (and believe the Bible clearly teaches) that failing to do our best can have eternal consequences. You don’t seem to agree with that. You think that once we’ve become Christians, God will accept any degree of service we choose to give him – but the Bible just doesn’t teach that.
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I do not believe that God will accept any degree of service.
Deuteronomy 11:44, “Be ye holy for, I am holy.”
All I am saying is that as believers we have eternal security.
Therefore, as I’ve stated above our treasures in heaven are being stored up by our good works here on Earth.
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If believers have eternal security, then God accepts any degree of service. There’s really no way around that.
However, believers can and should have confidence and “security” in their salvation, if they are honestly doing their best. And if they repent and ask for forgiveness when they know they’ve come short. The example of Simon the sorcerer shows us that, Acts 8.
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Granted, but our treasures in heaven are based on that service; even Christians face a future judgment.
Our good works here on earth give us greater treasures in heaven, this is why Jesus proclaimed the least on earth will be the greatest in heaven and vice versa. However, those works mean absolutely nothing without faith and I believe that is what James was saying.
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Stewart,
While it is true that works without faith are meaningless, James is telling us that faith without works is worthless also. Of course, these works must be the works God has authorized us to perform, or they will be worthless too.
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Jim,
I would disagree. All of the scriptural correlations between faith and salvation explicitly show that works do not matter for salvation; therefore James must be saying something else. Note exactly what James says “…and I will show you my faith BY my works” (James 2:18b). In other words true faith is demonstrated through deeds which bring glory to God. Doing good works only acts as a barometer of progressive sanctification, good works (or even the lack there of) never proves salvation. James is saying that saved people outwardly manifest their faith through good works.
Furthermore, I strongly believe that there were misunderstandings concerning works and faith during the early years of the Church. James was correct in what he was saying, but James was not combating this philosophy. His epistle was written to combat a different problem in the church and that is why he worded things the way he did.
A few years later another Apostle wrote on the exact same matters, except he was focusing on this problem of misunderstanding. Paul wrote, “But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works” (Romans 4:5-6). He continues hammering the point home that salvation comes through faith alone by making it very clear that Abraham was credited righteousness through faith prior to any good work; even prior to circumcision (Romans 4:9-12). Paul further explains that this portion of Genesis was written so we may know the truth, “Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification” (Romans 4:23-25).
In conclusion, since Paul was writing specifically on this topic and since James was actually focusing on the practical side of faith, Romans takes priority over James; hence, any interpretation must take this into account. James and Paul were saying the same thing, salvation by faith alone; James was just saying that one who is saved should show the fruit of that salvation or their claim may be false.
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Stewart:
The New Testament does not contradict itself. I agree that Paul was addressing the idea that we can’t earn salvation on our own merits. Abraham’s faith WAS counted for righteousness. However, if you will continue reading in Romans, you will find that in the 6th chapter Paul tells the Romans they had been saved by obedience to God’s commands. The 6th chapter also explains how baptism works in bringing about salvation. NEVER DOES THE NEW TESTAMENT TALK ABOUT FAITH ALONE EXCEPT TO SAY IT ISN’T SUFICIENT FOR SALVATION. The writings of Paul don’t trump the writings of James, but they agree with them.
To use the argument that James does, let me ask you this: Where does the New Testament say that “Faith alone saves us” ? I can show you (James 2:14-26) where Faith alone doesn’t save us. Who am I to believe? You or God? I don’t read anywhere in the New Testament that belief in Stewart will do anything for me, yet you seem to want me to ignore what the Bible plainly says to accept an unsupportable claim that you are making.
If you do have a new testament scripture that plainly says faith alone save us, then I will admit I’m wrong and will repent and ask God to forgive me for teaching a false doctrine. If you can’t supply a scripture that plainly says faith alone saves us, then, in light of what is plainly said in James 2, will you do the same?
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First off Jim, I did not mean to strike a nerve.
Second, I very clearly stated above that the two passages WERE NOT contradicting each other but were talking about different aspects of faith, one practical and the other doctrinal. Paul was explaining how faith is directly related to salvation; James on how faith was to be lived out.
Third, scripture:
Habakkuk 2:2-3, “The LORD answered me and said: Write the vision and make it plain on tablets, that he may run who reads it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time; but at the end it will speak, and it will not lie. Though it tarries, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.” Ok, here God is talking about a future time to come. Notice what He says next: “Behold the proud, his soul is not upright in him; but the just shall live by his faith.” Granted this doesn’t fully support my claim, but it is a step toward it.
The gospels: Matthew 6:30; 8:26; 9:2,22,29; 14:31; 16:8; 17:20; 21:21; 23:23; 25:21,23; Mark 2:5; 4:40; 5:34; 10:52; 11:22; Luke 5:20; 7:50; 8:48; 12:28; 17:19; 18:8,42; 19;17.
These verses all show that Jesus specifically focused on faith. He did not focus on whether the person was doing good works; He directed everything to faith. In fact on a few occasions He explicitly made it clear that faith alone was all that mattered, “Then He said to the woman, ‘Your faith has saved you. Go in peace'” (Luke 7:50). Also Jesus makes the directed comment, “Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8). When Jesus returns He will be directly looking for those people of true faith placed in Him. The entirety of Matthew 25:114-29 (The Parable of the Talents) is focusing on the faithful servant; not only is Jesus referring to the tribulation, but at faith itself. God gave all of us the ability to accept His gracious gift but there is a difference between believing God and placing your faith in what He has, is, and will do: “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe–and tremble!” (James 2:19).
“And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all” (Acts 3:16).
In addressing the Gentiles as believers: “So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Hold Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:9).
In Jesus own words to Paul, He states sanctification only comes through faith: “I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me” (Acts 28:17-18).
Then of course there is the classic passage which Dr. Martin Luther used to declare separation from the Catholic church; that salvation comes through faith alone, “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, The just shall live by faith” (Romans 1:16-17). Furthermore, the reason why I mentioned Habakkuk 2 above was because this was the vision Paul was referring back to in this passage; God foretold a time when faith alone allowed entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
Romans 3:21-26, “But now uthe righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law wand the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”
Also, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the Law” (Romans 3:28).
There is also Romans 4, which I mentioned in the previous post.
Romans 5:1-2, “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”
1 Corinthians 15:14, “And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty” Coupled with, “And if Christ is not risen, tour faith is futile; you are still in your sins” (1 Corinthians 15:17). Notice the correlation between faith and being still in sin, it is faith in the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ which releases us from the bondage of sin.
Galatians 2:16, “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”
Once again harkening back to Habakkuk, “But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for the just shall live by faith” Galatians 3:11).
Also, in Galatians Paul explains that the Law’s purpose was to teach the Hebrews that a savior was needed… that justification through faith alone has now come: “But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:22-26).
Additionally there is the previously mentioned Ephesians 2:8-9, “for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Ephesians 3:8-13, explains grace in greater detail and states God has done everything in accordance to His eternal purpose and that access to the throne of God has now come through faith: “in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him” (Ephesians 3:12).
“But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead” (Philippians 3:7-11).
I found this passage interesting (honestly never noticed it before), “Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God” (Hebrews 6:1). Paul refers to our discussion an elementary principle of doctrine, lol. Boy that makes me feel incredibly smart right now 😀
Habakkuk 2 is mentioned once again in Hebrews 10:37-38 (for full context start reading in verse 32.
Hebrews 11:1, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Faith is a window into the heart of man, it is where our hope is placed, hence why it is the only barometer that can be measured apart from self.
Of course all of chapter 11 of Hebrews discusses faith and how God even in Old Testament times focused on man’s faith. Verses 13-16 are essentially important to our discussion. Here, it is clear that these men were saved through faith; for they died in faith (v.13) and God prepared a city for them (v.16).
1 Peter 1:3-9, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.”
While this list of verses is not exhaustive, each passage presented notes strongly supports my belief that salvation comes through faith alone. Once again I believe James IS saying the same thing, but from the angle that good works prove/complete/make perfect faith. The Biblical data concerning faith, works and salvation lie heavily on the side that faith alone saves.
I pray that all this information sinks in and that you see I am not making an unsupported claim.
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Stewart,
I appreciate your reply. Just a couple of points in reply. I believe that all the passages you quoted point out how important faith is in our lives. Without faith, nothing else matters in pursuit of salvation. However, none of these passages say that faith only saves. As a matter of fact, in Hebrews 11, these great characters of faith were all obedient to God’s commands. Notice that they all, by faith, did something. You even made the point that the deeds done make faith comlete. I agree with that statement, which shows that faith by itself is incomplete.
Christ tells us in Matthew 7:21 that to be saved we must “DOETH the will of the Father”. Paul , in Acts 9, 22, and 26, in the telling of his conversion, tells how he had to OBEY what God told him. This included baptism. Paul had faith in God even when he was persecuting christians, yet he was not in a saved state. Obviously something else was needed.
In Romans 6:17-18, we read that they had obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine that had been delivered to them, and were then made free from sin.
All of these examples (and many more) tell us how we must render obedience to God’s word in order to obtain salvation. Certainly faith is an integral part of this, just not the only part.
Stewart, I am going to put the “dead cat” on the table here. You have started with a false premise, which is comforting and sounds good, and you are looking at the scriptures and trying to make them fit with this premise. If you will look at the scriptures with an open mind, you will have to come to the conclusion that God expects obedience out of us. Salvation is not of faith only, as is plainly stated in James 2. Faith is the foundation upon which our works of obedience must rest, but by itself it is incomplete and ineffective.
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Stewart, I was about to make the very same comment. All the passages you listed do indeed show the importance of faith. In fact, they are all passages that I very much agree with. But none of them teach that salvation is by faith alone.
I don’t think this is anything new to you. It’s really the same argument that I and the others on this thread have been making, and the Bible makes it very obvious. After all, can’t you think of several passages that talk about salvation coming through God’s grace, repentance, confession, and even baptism? The only way to rationalize all of that is to understand that they are all related, and all necessary.
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Interesting,
I would agree that works complete faith, but works do not complete salvation. Furthermore, the entire reformation is based off the idea that salvation comes through faith alone. I mean all Baptist and Protestant denominations today are based off this fundamental belief. Furthermore, the writings of the early church Fathers strongly lean in the same direction.
I fully admit that my interpretation of the scriptures could be wrong. The scriptures themselves must correct, refine, and either confirm or disprove our understanding of doctrine.
We all would probably agree that we are under the age of grace. And I believe that understanding must be our starting point. Christ and the gospel saves, right? Everything must be interpreted in light of these truths. This is a major thrust in all of Paul’s writings: God promised a time that the Law would not be necessary, and that time has now been realized in Christ.
My point is, if Christ is the completion of the law and Ephesians 2:8 clearly states, “for by grace you have been saved through faith” (once again, grace is what God has given us and faith is all that is required according to this verse)… then why are works necessary for salvation?
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“then why are works necessary for salvation?”
Well, cliche as it may sound: because God said so.
Yes, we are under the age of grace; the Old Law’s authority has been done away with. We are no longer justified by works, but by grace through faith. But James 2 and the examples in Hebrews 11 (and elsewhere) all show that faith is completed in works.
Now, if that’s all the information we had on it, then Stewart, I’d agree with your position: that faith is all that’s required of us, but in order for us to please God, we should try to live according to his word.
But there are other passages that must be taken into account. Like we’ve said before, repentance, confession, etc are all talked about in the scriptures. And of course, the one we seem to really struggle with, baptism.
Once again, I would be inclined to think that baptism was merely another “work” God wanted us to do once we had been saved. But we have passages that tell us there’s more to baptism than just that.
Many passages tell us that baptism washes away sin (Acts 22:16), or is for the remission of sin (Acts 2:38), or is involved in the process to make disciples (Matt 28:19-20), or is how we enter into Christ (Gal 3:27, Rom 6:3-17), or is how we are saved (1 Pet 3:21).
Do you see my point? If we weren’t given these teachings, then I would be right there with you, proclaiming that all a man needs to do is have faith to be saved. But I can’t do that in light of these other passages.
I’d like to answer a couple of your other points too:
“Furthermore, the entire reformation is based off the idea that salvation comes through faith alone. I mean all Baptist and Protestant denominations today are based off this fundamental belief.”
This is why I don’t consider myself to be Baptist or Protestant. The Lord told us that his church would always stand. I don’t believe that it disappeared for hundreds of years until Protestants came to the scene. I believe there have always been small congregations of faithful Christians throughout history, and it’s this group that I strive to belong to.
“Furthermore, the writings of the early church Fathers strongly lean in the same direction.”
Then some of these “church Fathers” may be suspect. I’m not trying to be beligerent; I think it can be useful to study those writings to see what people at the time thought about certain issues. But I can’t let their stance lead me from plain passages. They may have misunderstood something.
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Faith completed by works does not mean works are required for salvation.
I hold to progressive sanctification, and I believe passages like Romans 12:1-2 and others show that we must strive to keep our faith strong, pure, and refreshed or else we will not grow in Christ.
Therefore, works are rightly relegated to a byproduct of salvation, not a requirement of.
Every time I read through James trying to grasp your presentation and I just don’t see it, this is the only place in the New Testament were works is even mentioned with faith. All those passages I listed show how important faith is to salvation, and none of them mention works. Furthermore, when you study what God’s grace is and couple that with faith, the logical conclusion is that salvation comes through faith alone. James, therefore, must be interpreted in light of all the other evidence.
Since I obviously am interpreting James in light of other passages (i.e. Ephesians 2:8-9) and you are starting with James… I guess my question would be, why do you place James as your primer for interpretation of salvation requirements?
Please don’t misunderstand, we are both using scripture to interpret scripture (as we should). I am just wondering why you are starting with James.
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Stewart,
I am not starting with James, I just give it as much importance as I do the rest of the New Testament.
Let me try to explain it this way. In Genesis 12, God gives promises to Abraham. These promises include a land that the people of Israel would be given. These promises are repeated to all the patriarchs and we find the fullfillment of this land promise in Joshua’s day when the land of Canaan is invades, conquererd, and settled. Notice that even though this land was a gift from God, they were required to enter the land, drive out the nations inhabiting the land and possess it and remain faithful to God. God helped them conquer the land, and could have driven out the nations without any participation of the Israelites. However, they had to put forth the effort to fight for the land in order to receive it. In the same way, we have a promise of a promised land today, which is that home in heaven that is promised to all who obey God. It is a gift, we don’t earn it, but we must comply with the requirements or conditions of the promise, just as Israel had to in the old testament.
Furthermore, James isn’t yhe only place in the new testament that refers to works that we must do, or commands we must keep. All throughout the book of Acts we find people being told to do things to obtain remission of sins and receive salvation. Faith, repentance, confession of Christ as the son of God, baptism, and remaining a faithful servant of God are commanded of those in Acts, as well as being taught in the epistles.
There are works we are to perform in our daily lives after we become Christians, but there are works God has commanded us to perform in order to become a Christian (or to be in a saved condition). Failure to obey these commands can only result in our soul being lost.
Besides, if James was the only place where works were commanded, would that make them any less important? If one passage in the new testament said “faith only saves”, would I be justified in ignoring it or explaining it away? I Corinthians 11 tell us how to partake of the Lord’s Supper. Since it is the only passage that gives us detail on this, can I ignore it? I don’t read of God telling Adam and Eve “not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” more than once, but He held them to it. King Saul was only told once to utterly destroy the Amelikites in I Kings, but was rebuked because he left the king and cattle alive. He was told he had disobeyed God, even though He had faith in God and did some of what God commanded.
My point in all this is that I only know what is pleasing to God by what I am told in the scriptures. In the new testament He tells me I must have faith (Hebrews 11:1), I must repent of my sins (Acts 2:38), I must confess (Romans 10:9-10), be baptized(I peter 3:21), and live faithfully (Revelation 2:10). These are not the only passages that tell me these things, but wouldn’t you agree that even if they were, God would expect me to do what He has Commanded?
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Stewart,
I’m sorry, but I made an erroneous reference. The reference to King Saul and the Amalekites is in I Samuel 15, not I Kings. Sorry for the mistake.
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You stated,
“There are works we are to perform in our daily lives after we become Christians, but there are works God has commanded us to perform in order to become a Christian (or to be in a saved condition). Failure to obey these commands can only result in our soul being lost.”
Honestly, I think you are confusing dispensational distinctives.
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Also, I am not saying James is not important… it very much is.
What I am saying is that Ephesians along with Romans (and others) contradict James. On a literal word-by-word reading they do not agree. Therefore, I am positioning that James is actually discussing the practical side of faith not what one must do to gain or keep salvation.
My argument has always been such and has never changed. I know that it is hard to understand but we are not under the law, we are under grace.
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“Honestly, I think you are confusing dispensational distinctives”
What do you mean by that?
Stewart, James is not the only place that talks about “works.” It is true that Romans and Ephesians talk alot of faith and grace, but even they mention necessity of obeying God’s commands. Romans 6:3-14 talks about the importance of baptism and of avoiding sin. In Romans 10:9-10, confession is talked about in conjunction with belief. In Ephesians 2:8-10, the importance of works is mentioned in conjunction with faith and grace. Ephesians 4:4 talks about baptism, and Ephesians 5 talks about putting away works of the flesh to pursue works of the spirit.
All of it is required; how I wish you could see that! You can’t say that salvation is won solely by faith any more than I could claim it’s won solely by works. The thing is, both are required. And once God sees by our faith (made evident through our works) that we’re trying to serve him, then his grace will save us – just as Abraham had to go to the point of bringing the knife down toward Isaac before God accepted his faith.
Paul wrote constantly about faith and grace, but go read the book of Acts. How many times do you see Paul stressing the importance of baptism? And he also stressed it in Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27, and many other places besides.
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Stewart,
I don’t think it is hard to understand at all. I too believe that we are under grace, not under the old law. It is thru God’s grace that we have been given the gift of salvation. We don’t earn it, we don’t deserve it, and it is only thru the grace of God that He has given His son to die for our sins, while we were yet sinners. Since I do not believe that the NT contradicts itself, then I must conclude that God has placed requirements on me that I must meet to be able to receive the gift. Certainly, we agree that faith is one of these requirements. Further, what I believe the NT teaches, is that there are other requirements also. We are plainly told to repent, confess, and be baptized. Colosians 1:14 tell us we have redemption through the blood of Christ, the forgiveness of sins. Galations 3:27 tell us we are baptized into Christ. Romans 6 tell us that we were baptized into Christ, and we must be His servants. Without baptism, we do not come into contact with the blood of Christ, which is what cleanses us from sin. Yes, faith is an important part of this, for without faith we are just wet. Therefore, faith and baptism work together.
It is obvious that the faith called for in the NT is an obedient faith. Faith, without obedience, is not true faith. It takes compliance with the requirements of God to be pleasing to Him.
Also, I don’t think I have confused dispensations. My use of old testament examples was to try to prove a point. Romans 15:4 tells us that we are to learn from the old Testament. I Corinthians 10:11 tells us that the stories of old are for our examples. I was just trying to show that in the past God has demanded compliance with His requirements for people to receive His gifts. I believe the analogy fits with NT scripture.
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Dispensations:
In essence a dispensation is a period of time (often translated as an “age” throughout the Bible). A prime theological passage for explaining the idea is Hebrews 1:1-2, “God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things through whom also He made the ages.” This is a declaration that Christ has arranged and programmed successive ages or dispensations of time. The term dispensation comes from Ephesians 3:1-2, “For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles–If indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you.” A literal translation carries the idea of stewardship, a responsibility which God has given to man during a specific period in time.
What I meant by my statement is that under the dispensation of the Law God revealed His purpose for His chosen race through the Mosaic Law. They were supposed to obey God, during this period of history. His purpose was to teach them about their need for a savior. Currently we are under the dispensation of Grace, “And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” (John 1:16-17). Often this is considered the demarcation line separating these two dispensations. As the Law was grace now is…
There are tons of passages, many of which I have previously mentioned, which shows grace has replaced the law. What I was getting at is that under the Law there were works, under grace there is grace. By the very definition of grace, the idea that works matter at all is contradictory to God’s purpose for this age.
–When I have more time I’ll respond to the rest–
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Stewart,
The definition of grace as found in the bible is “Unmerited favor”. As I have attempted to point out already, we don’t earn salvation, we merely are required to follow the conditions of receiving the gift. For example, if I told some one that I would give them $100.00 if they would walk with me across the street, then they would certainly have to comply with my requirement to receive the gift. They have done nothing worthy of receiving the money, it is a gift from me, but the had to follow the conditions I set forth in order to receive it.
I have never said that we earn salvation by performing works. What I have said (and provided many passages to support) is that I must comply with God’s commands in order to receive the gift of salvation. The passages you use to support your theory of faith alone prove that faith is necessary for salvation. They do not prove faith alone is all that is needed for salvation. Not a single passage tells us that. There are passages that tell us just as plainly that other things are required for salvation. How can you ignore them or explain them away? Why is it a problem to obey God? In Romans 6 paul tells the romans that they had at one time been servants of sin, but they had OBEYED from the heart what God had told them to do. In Matthew 7:21 Jesus said that not everyone that called on the name of the Lord would be saved, but he that DOETH the will of the Father. If, by your own definition, faith is not a work, how can you then say that faith alone is all God requires of us? Why does it seem impossible to you that God could require one thing of us (faith), and not require other things of us, especially when so many NT passages tell us plainly that He does?
I agree that “faith only” is a comforting and non-threatening doctrine, but it is a false doctrine. There is no biblical support for this. The bible plainly tells us what saves us, and nowhere does it say “faith only” is sufficient.
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Stewart, thanks for explaining your previous post. I knew what “dispensation” meant, but I hadn’t caught exactly what you were referencing with it. Thanks for clearing that up.
That said, I agree 100% with Jim’s comments above.
In talking about the Jews, you said this: “They were supposed to obey God, during this period of history.”
I agree with that statement, but why in the world would God not require obedience today? As Jim mentioned, Galatians tells us that the Old Law was given for our learning – why would God’s nature change b/t the Old and New Testaments?
Plus, you have to consider all the other passages Jim just mentioned. The New Testament does in fact teach us that our obedience is important, yet the doctrines of “Faith Only” and “Eternal Security” contradict it. If we can put away all the rhetoric and concentrate solely on what the Bible teaches, the answer is clear.
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I agree with you that God does not change. In support of my view, I have stated all along that the Law in the Old Testament was to teach us and the the Law showed the need for a savior because there was not way a person could follow every minutia of the Law. The Law, which the Jews tried to follow, was enacted to protect them from the pagan world around them and to keep them safe while in the wilderness. In essence that is a gracious gift.
I know that its hard to understand, but the Law was God’s grace to His chosen people. The Law is now perfectly completed in Christ. Hence the Law is not required anymore. Furthermore, there are plenty of passages in the Old Testament which comment directly to the point I am trying to make, that God always looks at the heart (Ezekiel, et al). I am not attempting fancy rhetoric then when I state that it is solely by His grace anyone has ever been saved.
I believe that is point of Ephesians 2:8, “For it is by grace you have been saved…” the focal point of which is faith in the life, death, burial, resurrection, and return of the Messiah.
Which is why Jesus said to the woman who anointed Jesus with the fragrant oil in Luke 7:44-50, “your sins are forgiven” & “your faith has saved you.” Remember she did not do a single work to receive this gift, she just believed in Him as her savior and showed it through worship.
Jim, you have taken Matthew 7:21 completely out of context:
First of all, the issue Jesus is confronting false teachers, not what saves you. The whole passage begins with verse 13, where Jesus is teaching His disciples about the two ways to live… one leads to heaven the other hell. He continues further noting that false teachers/prophets will come to lead them astray. Notice verse 20, “Therefore by their fruits your will know them.” Wait a minute, that’s what James was talking about!! James 2 correlates perfectly with what Jesus just stated… (I’ll get back to that in a second). So now that we know Jesus is talking about false prophets, we see the proper context of verse 21, Jesus is not saying that it is a bad thing to say to him “Lord, Lord,” but that it is insufficient. He has just made emphatically the point that a person’s deeds show what the person is, and he is now saying that words are not the significant thing. It is easy for anyone to profess loyalty, but to practice it is quite another thing. Says stands in contrast to does; words are not enough. A profession of faith in Christ means nothing unless the person’s life reflects this profession. Hence James and Jesus are in agreement that the deeds of a person show salvation, but the deeds of a person are by no means a requirement of salvation. Neither text says that.
Faith and deeds/works are distinct elements relating to salvation… One is the requirement, the other proof. And that is what Jesus and James are saying. In fact Jesus is specifically going after the person who standing in judgment defends himself in claiming the good deeds he has done in Jesus name. The response Jesus gives is “I never knew you.” This is not about loss of salvation, these people never had it to begin with.
Lastly, I do believe obedience is important. In fact, the first step one takes in an obedient life is placing faith in Christ.
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I was just thinking that our issue which needs to be resolved is the meaning of justification in James 2, especially in comparison with Paul’s use of this concept. It is here that Paul and James seem most at odds with each other, since parallel verses can be found that appear to say exactly opposite things.
So please follow me here:
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of Law” (Romans 3:28). “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God” (Romans 4:2). “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar?” (James 2:21). “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24).
Even though these verses seem difficult to reconcile, the foundation for a proper understanding has already been laid in the earlier discussion of faith and works. The distinction of pre-conversion works versus post-conversion works is significant in this regard, and this suggests other differences between the two writers. Writing in forensic terms, Paul denied that works can have any merit in God’s initial act of declaring a sinner righteous. Such justification is completely a gift of His grace apart from works for all who believe in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:20–26). James spoke of works being done as the fruit of faith by those whose initial justification is already accomplished. This is seen in the double reference to Abraham’s justification in James 2:21, 23. He was justified by works when he offered up Isaac (v. 21), but this was the fulfillment of the truth that Abraham had already believed God and his faith was reckoned as righteousness (v. 23). But the nature of this justification must be clarified further.
One way to interpret the justification of James 2 is to read it as final justification, “God’s ultimate declaration of a person’s righteousness” which occurs at the future judgment. This perhaps alludes to Jesus’ teaching (Matt. 12:36–37), “I say to you, that every careless word that men shall speak, they shall render account for it on the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” In the judgment God will confirm the righteousness attained by His people, who were justified initially and sanctified by His grace. This interpretation suits the general statement in verse 24 quite well, but it does not fit the descriptions of Abraham and Rahab, who “were justified” in a particular historical situation. This can hardly be read as final judgment, and James said nothing to connect it explicitly with final justification.
The better way then to understand justification in this passage is to see it as the demonstration of a righteous standing before God. The verb dikaioō is sometimes used in the sense of “vindicate, show to be righteous” (e.g., Romans 3:4; 1 Timothy 3:16). In this sense Abraham’s obedience and Rahab’s hospitality demonstrated their righteousness for anyone to see. This fits better with these historical illustrations. It also suits the general statement of James 2:24.
A person’s righteous standing cannot be seen only from his or her faith, but is shown by one’s acts of love and obedience, which others may witness. This interpretation also reinforces the theme of demonstrating the genuineness of faith, which runs through 2:14–26.
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Stewart,
There are many things to respond to, and I will do so in a couple of days, but let me say one thing quickly.
I recognize that the context of Matthew 7:21 is talking about false teachers primarily, as Jesus is addressing those who seemed to believe that almost everyone would be saved, whaen in reality only a few would be (verses 13-14). When He gets to verse 21, He is saying that those who think you can be saved without obedience to God’s commands are teaching false doctrine. Sound familiar? John 6:29 Jesus says faith is a work. If works have no bearing on our salvation, then neither does faith, because it is a work. Also, as you have pointed out, we are saved by God’s grace, so whether I believe or not, it doesn’t matter, because God will save us all anyway. I know this last statement contradicts what God has told us, but it is the logical result of your arguments.
No matter how you try to explain your view, you cannot escape the fact that the New Testament plainly tells us what saves us. These passages have been given to you repeatedly in this discussion. Rather than accept what they plainly say, you are coming up with convoluted reasoning and twisting what is said to fit your belief. It is through God’s grace we are saved. Faith is necessary for salvation. Repentance of sin is necessary for salvation. Confession that Christ is the son of God is necessary for salvation. Baptism is necessary for salvation. The New Testament plainly states this. How then can you state that faith only saves? You have yet to show one passage that plainly says this. The false teachers Jesus was talking about in Matthew 7 obviously had the same idea you have, that works(obedience to God’s commands) are not necessary. Doing God’s will leads to salvation.
There obviously were those in Rome who wanted to hold to the old testament. Paul tells them in the early part of Romans that there is not salvation in the old law, that the new law that Christ died to establish is based on faith. He is not saying faith only, but he is saying that they could not keep the works of the old law and receive salvation. As you go through the book of Romans, you find that the idea of faith is expanded to include baptism (chapter 6), confession (chapter 10), and obedience in general. He never gives an indication that faith only saves us, so we don’t have to worry about doing anything else if we don’t want to.
I fail to see the logic in saying that God expects me to have faith and it is a requirement of salvation, but the other commands He gives us are optional. Either God requires me to obey Him or He doesn’t. If He doesn’t require it, then faith is not required either. If faith is required, so are the other commands. They go hand in hand. This is the point James is making.
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