A little while back, I found a post on this blog that I decided to answer. He quoted this passage in Hebrews (as I have done below) and asked if anyone had thoughts on what it meant. Of course, I did, and I felt like they were pretty well reasoned. No one ever responded to my comment, so I thought I would repost it here, to see if any of you would like to.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. – Hebrews 6:4-6
This is definitely a difficult passage. Hebrews 10:26-30 is a little clearer in my opinion.
But basically, does this passage sound like Christians can fall away from God? From salvation? And if they do, does it further mean that they can never get that relationship back??
Well, I do absolutely believe that Christians can fall away and lose their salvation. Again, the passage in Hebrews 10 teaches that plainly – it talks about one who “was sanctified” looking forward to a “fearful expectation of judgment.”
But I don’t think that means we can never be forgiven. Romans 11:19-24 talks about this subject by comparing Christians to the branches of an olive tree. Those who were Jews and had rejected Christ, were cut off from God. But Paul tells the Gentiles not to be haughty, because if the Jews could have been cut off, the Gentiles could be as well, if they turned away. And then, if they repented, they could be “grafted” back in.
So even if we can fall from God’s grace, he will accept us back with loving arms when we see the error of our way. The parable of the Prodigal Son shows us exactly that.
I think Hebrews 6 is making the same point, and when it says “it is impossible to renew them to repentance,” I think it’s saying that as long as those Christians continue in sin, there’s no sacrifice for them… in other words, they can’t be saved while hanging on to that sin. Like Paul says in Romans 6:1-2, if we’ve died to sin, how can we continue in it? That’s the life that we are to put off, when we become Christians.
So as long as we refuse to give up sinful things, we can’t be “renewed again to repentance” because we mock the sacrifice that Christ made for us. As Hebrews 10 says, we “trample the Son of God under foot and count the blood of the covenant by which we were sanctified a common thing.”
Finding Truth 
I am not saying obedience and works are not necessary, I am saying they are not a requirement of salvation… big difference.
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Also, I think you are misunderstanding me when I state faith is the sole requirement for I completely acknowledge that repentance and confession and faith all play a role in salvation (not baptism or works); they are so closely related that talking about one apart from another is impossible. I recently ran across this quote that states this better then I could:
“The individual’s responsibility, which is always portrayed as preceding baptism, involves repentance, faith in Jesus Christ, and the confession of Jesus Christ as Lord.” Did you catch that? Salvation takes place prior to baptism and any good work.
The author continues, “The interrelatedness of this single, three-fold, response to the gospel message is such that often only one of these components of the individual’s responsibility may be described in a particular account. Yet repentance always assumes the presence of faith and confession; faith always assumes repentance and confession; and confession always assumes repentance and faith. The intimate relationship of these three components are not understood in Acts as separate and isolated responses to the gospel but integrated parts of ‘the’ needed human response for becoming a Christian” (Believer’s Baptism, “Baptism in Luke-Acts” by Robert H. Stein, p. 64).
In other words, when I say salvation comes from faith alone, I completely acknowledge (as I have stated in prior posts) that repentance and confession are part of faith. I am by no means neglecting these aspects… for me they all fall under faith, for you cannot have faith without repenting and confessing your sins; they are mutually inclusive. Just as the NT writers use these words interchangeably in discussing the human response to the gospel message, I do. Therefore, what I am stating is that a correct response to the gospel saves. I am calling that response faith because that is the primary word used throughout the entire NT to describe that response. Hence salvation comes though faith (a humans response to God’s truth spoken in Scriptures) alone, which is realized through God’s gracious gift given to all in the form of His Son Christ Jesus.
A claim to salvation means nothing (Matthew 7, James 2). Salvation is proven though our good works, hence the notion that works completely perfect faith. Neither passage states works are required only that they prove faith.
And I have showed plenty of scripture which holds to the view that salvation comes by faith alone. And Ephesians 2:9 does say “not of works lest you might boast.” This further pushes the idea that James must be talking about proving faith through works, not a requirement of salvation.
Lastly, Romans is all about the fact that faith alone saves. The topic sentence of the book states it as such: “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.” In fact Paul doesn’t stop there he continues, “For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, The just shall live by faith” (Romans 1:16-17). Yes, Paul does bring in baptism in chapter 6, but notice that he is confronting their behavior and the constant war which is going on in their members. He is not coupling salvation with baptism, he is stating that the world sees you as a new creation because of your baptism and therefore you better start acting like it.
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Stewart, you quoted an author on his views of what part (if any) baptism plays in salvation. I’d like to take some time and quote what the bible says about it. I kinda trust it over folks I don’t know.
Romans 6: 3-8
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Ok, a set of question and direct answers from God’s Word:
What are we baptized into? Christ Jesus and His death. (vs 3)
Therefore how were we buried with Him? Through baptism into death (vs4) and likewise we are raised into a newness of life by the Father through this baptism.
Look at verse 5, ‘for if we have been united together in the likeness of His death (we just saw this is done through baptism) then certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.” The body of sin is done away with through baptism (this death figure mentioned in verse 3 &4) that we should no longer be slaves of sin. Take a strong look at verse 8 Now if we died with Christ, (which in verses 3& 4 it says we do through baptism, not anything else), then we believe that we shall also live with Him.
Acts 22: 6-16
Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’
9 “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid,[a] but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. 10 So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’ 11 And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.
12 “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’
There is a very subtle truth hidden in these verses that I had looked over in the past. Saul comes face to face with the Lord Jesus Christ. He realizes all that he has done has been so very wrong. He is told that he is to go into a city and wait to be told what he must do. For three days Paul fasts and prays (Acts 9). He meets Jesus face to face, obviously he believes that He is the Christ. For three days he fasts and prays blind. I’m sure he was begging for forgiveness for all the horrible things he had done as a persecutor of the Church. So here he is, he has faith, I’m sure he’s asked for forgiveness, yet what do Ananias tell him he must do? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’ Don’t you see, he still had sin! And the only way to wash that sin away was to be baptized.
Titus 3:4-5
But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
How does God save us? Through the washing of regeneration, regeneration means new life. Doesn’t Romans 6 paint a picture of us dying to an old life and being buried through baptism to be raised into a new life? Doesn’t this washing insinuate baptism?
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Again here is another verse that talks of this washing away of sin. The same way Paul was told to “Arise, and be baptized and wash away your sins” Very similar to the way Peter instructed to the people to “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission (forgiveness)of sins”
I know everyone is probably thinking that it would be great if the bible just said that baptism saves you. That would be a simple command that we could follow right? Well it does.
1 Pet 3:20b-21
in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype, which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
That’s right baptism saves us. Not by some special washing of your body, not by some work we do, but by us doing what God has told us to, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Baptism isn’t a work we do, really someone else is baptizing you. You chose to believe in Christ, You chose to confess Him, You repent of your sin, which requires a turning around of your life, and You can chose to be baptized. All these things have to fit together or we might as well throw the bible out. The same verbage that is used to say faith, repentance, and confesion saves us is used to say that baptism saves us as well. Why do you want to accept some of the bible and not all of it?
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Matt, I am not accepting only part of the Bible.
The Holy Spirit seals us at the point of salvation… this is called Spiritual Baptism.
“Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in out hearts as a guarantee” (2 Corinthians 1:21-22).
“In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, your were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory” (Ephesians 1:13).
Both of these verses speak of the Spirit sealing us and neither mention water baptism. It is very clear in these texts that sealing occurs at the point of conversion when believers receive the Spirit. Furthermore, there is no reference to water baptism in either text.
Additionally, in Romans 4:11 Paul states Abraham’s seal of righteousness was circumcision. However he takes this one step further and is actually saying that circumcision was not required for salvation… take all of Romans 4:9-12 into account… because Abraham believed and was right with God (Genesis 15:6) before he was circumcised (Genesis 17). The seal of Abraham only ratified, or authenticated the faith and righteousness he already had.
The exact same is true today, water baptism authenticates faith. It expresses to the world that this person is now God’s. Hence the term believer’s baptism. Only believer’s are to be baptized. If faith is the first step of obedience, I would claim baptism is the second.
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But Stewart,
What about the verses that list only repentance leading to salvation,
Acts 3:19
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord
2 Cor 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
or the ones that only mention confession
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness
Romans 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
ok that one does mention two seperate things, but both are equally tied in to salvation in that verse, you believe unto righteousness and your confession leads to salvation.
How can you ignore pauls writting in Romans 6 where he tells us that baptism is how we are burried in christ death and raised in His resurection to a hope of salvation. Or my comments on acts chapter 22 where after having faith and confession Saul still had sin needing to be washed away.
There are many verses in the NT that only mention one thing leading to salvation, they say nothing else of the others. Unless we are to view the bible as contridicting itself we must take them all into account and put them together.
If salvation is our desired destination we will have to start on the road of faith, but that doesn’t mean we won’t have to go through the fields of confession, take the path of repentance and cross over the bridge of baptism to get there. They are all marks on God’s roadmap he left us in the bible. Faith is what starts us down that way, but unless we follow God’s directions we will never get where we want to go.
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I have already addressed the issue of repentance and confession in another post; they are mutually inclusive with faith.
As for Romans 6, it is all symbolic. “Just as” (v. 4) is a key phrase to comparing something with something else… Paul is using symbolism to express a truth. In this case he is comparing the rite of water baptism with Christ’s death, burial and resurrection. Baptism is a symbolic act declaring to the world that a person is committed to following Christ.
Please read Acts 22:16 very carefully for you are drawing a concussion the text does not lead you to, “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” This verse is comprised of three clauses “arise and be baptized” is a separate clause from “wash away your sins calling on the name of the Lord.” If you understand Greek go over to http://opentext.org/texts/NT/Acts/view/clause-ch22.v16.html and you’ll see what I’m talking about. My point is, calling of God’s name is connected to washing away sins not baptism. Baptism and faith are exclusive of each other, one is a public confession the other an inward confession.
Furthermore, I don’t believe the Bible teaches a progressive view of salvation. Salvation is a singular point in a person’s life which has eternal consequences in both directions (Romans 8:28-30).
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oops use,
http://opentext.org/texts/NT/Acts/view/clause-ch22.v0.html
and scroll down to verse 16.
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I’m honestly been thinking though what you all have been writing, and I have a question that will hopefully allow me to understand you position better.
I assume you would all agree that a person must be righteous to enter into heaven, correct? It goes to say then that this same person must also be justified, with me so far?
My question therefore is by what process are we justified and made righteous?
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Stewart,
Bear with me please. I will answer your question about justification, but let me adderss an earlier post more fully first. Please excuse the typos, as I suffer from “fat finger disease”, and am not very proficient with a computer.
First of all, let me try to explain what I perceive to be a difference in views on works. When you say works, I believe you are thinking about anything we would consider a good work. I am not talking about that. I agree that we do not earn salvation. God doesn’t look at us and determine if He will save us if we have done enough good works to earn our way to heaven. When I am talking about works, I am talking about the doing of those things God has given us to do as a condition of salvation. Just as you believe that repentance and confession are required for salvation(which I also believe) in addition to faith, I also belive that God has required baptism for salvation. I do not believe that the bible teaches that faith and repentance and confession are all the same thing, but it does teach that they are all required, so I would say that you don’t really belive “faith alone” is all that God requires of us for salvation. Having said this, allow me to go on to prove that baptism is also required.
The book of romans does not teach faith alone. Notice in Romans 1:5 Paul says”… received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith…” which tells us at the very beginning that faith must include obedience, which is obviously not alone if obedience must be included with it. In verse 8 he comments onthe fact that their faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. How would anyone have known about their faith if there hadn’t been some action to demonstrate it? Faith had to be seen by their works of obedience. Therefore, there is a clear inference early in the book that “faith alone” is not what is being discussed.
Allow me to digress for a moment, and I will return to Romans shortley. Lets look at some of the examples of conversion in Acts. In Acts 2:37 it is obvious that those present recognize and believe that they have put to death the son of God. It is also obvious that even though they now believe that Jesus is the son of God, they recognize the need to do something in addition to their faith. They have evidenced their faith by asking the question of Peter “what must we do?”. In verse 38 Peter tells them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Obviously, even though they had faith, they do not have remission of sins unless they repent and are baptized. What an opportunity Peter missed here in not telling them that their sins had been forgiven already because they had faith. I hate to keep using the term “obviously”, but obviously faith alone was not sufficient.
In Acts 3:19 the peolpe are told to repent ans be converted that their sins might be blotted out. They obviously already had faith, but they still needed to do something to have their sins blotted out.
In Acts 8:11-12 Simon hears whar Phillip preaches, believes, and is baptized. How would he have known to do that unless Phillip had preached it to him? Why would he have done it if it was not necessary?
In Acts 8:35-40 Phillip preaches to the Ethiopian Eunuch. The eunuch recognized the need for baptism after Phillip preaches to him, and Phillip asks him if he believes. He does, confesses Christ as the son of God, and is baptized.
In Acts 9:1-18 Saul recognizes that it is Jesus, whom he has persecuted, who is talking to him. He is instructed to go to Damascus where he will be told what he must do. In Acts 22:16, as Paul retells this event, he says that Annanias told him to repent and be baptized and wash away his sins. Obviously, baptism has something to do with removing sin.
In Acts 10 Crnrlius is commanded to br baptized.
In Acts 16:25-33 the Phillipian jailor in the same hour of the night is baptized after being taught by Paul. Why the haste? Obviously he understood that it was something necessary for him to do.
All of these examples of conversion include more than faith, and I believe the pattern is clear that these folks all understood baptism to be a part of the plan of salvation. As a matter of fact, I peter 3:21 tells us explicitly that baptism saves. It doesn’t get much plainer than that.
How, then, can i belive that faith alone saves? Of course you seem to have modified your original stance to include repentance and confession. I would submit that repentance and confession are works which we must do to receive salvation. I know faith is involved in all of this, but that is not the same as faith alone. It is faith, repentance, and confession. Three separate things which are related in that we must have sufficient faith to be motivated to do them, but more than faith alone. I believe that baptism is also commanded, and I believe that those conversions in Acts include it. The evedence appears to me to be logical, overwhelming and conclusive in support of the fact that baptism is commanded by God and we must be baptized in order to obtain salvation.
Now, allow me to go back to romans.Specifically, lets look carefully at chapter 6. Verses 3-8 speak specifically to the idea of baptism. Verse 4 tells us we must walk in newness of life. There is no newness of life until the old man of sin has been buried with Christ through baptism, and we are raised from that watery grave as a new creature. A similar passage in Galations 3:27 tells us we put on Christ through baptism.
Colosians 2:11-13 compares baptism to circumcision. I am sure you are aware that circumcision was the part of the covenant the Jews were to keep in the old law. Baptism, in the new testament, is a similar thing. By it we symbolically shed the old man of sin and are regenerated. We are buried with Christ in baptism, and are raised through the faith in the operation of God. Just getting wet doesn’t save us, but must be coupled with faith that God will forgive us of our sins when we complete His commands by having faith in God and His dear Son, repent of our sins, confess Christ as the son of God, and are baptized in obedience to God’s command. All these things fit together logically.
You have mentioned the faith of Abraham. Yes, he was justified by faith, not by works of the old law or works of his own righteousness. However, his faith had to be of suffiecient magnitude that he rendered obedience to god’s commands.(Hebrews 11:8). All of these characters of faith in Hebrews 11 DID simething. Faith alone was not sufficient. Obrdience is brought about by faith, but faith without doing what God has commanded is a dead faith. This is what James is saying in chapter 2.
Also, when the book of Romans refers to works in the first few chapters, it is referring to the works of the old law, which did not bring salvation. It was only through obrdience to the gospel of
christ that salvation could be obtained.
Now, you asked the question about what justifies us. This is an easy question. Matthew 12:37 says we are justified by our words. Romans 3:24 says we are justified by grace through the redemption that is IN Christ (Galations 3:27 says we are in Christ through baptism). Romans 5:1-5 tells us we are justified by the blood of Christ. Romans 8:30 tells us that those who are called are justified. Galations 2:17 tells us we are justified by Christ. Galations 3:24 tells us we are justified by faith. Titus 3:7 tells us we are justified by grace. James 2:24 tells us that works justify, and not faith only.
The sum of all this is that we are justified by god’s grace when we obeyed in faith what He has told us to do.
Honestly Stewart, you cannot avoid the fact that God has commanded that we are to have faith, we are to repent, we are to confess, and we are to be baptized. This is not some requirement made up by man, but it is plainly stated in God’s word. Remember, Romans 3:4 tells us “let God be true, but every man a liar”. I’m just trying to relate to you what is plainly stated in the New Testament.
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Jim,
Thanks for the extended response, it was very insightful.
Also, thanks for explaining what you hold ‘works’ to be (for that was my next question). I do not see faith, confession, or repentance as a work. I believe that there is a difference between what we as humans do, and how we as humans respond. Faith, confession, and repentance are responses to the good news of Christ resurrected; they are selfless by their very nature.
You mentioned that my claim to faith alone has changed… not really. Look back over the posts fairly early on (once people started mentioning confession and repentance) I explained how that all fits together (starts around #25).
Would you agree that confession cannot happen apart from faith?
How about repentance apart from confession?
I’m not trying to create a circular argument, but the fact of the mater is you can not have faith without the other two. When I say faith alone saves, repentance and confession are implied; they have to be… the NT writers even used the words that way.
Romans 1:5… yes faith must include obedience, but don’t forget obedience also includes faith. These two aspects should not be equated, compartmentalized, or broken up into separate stages of our walk with God. For to obey Christ we as believers must present ourselves in faith; in the same way, to have unwavering faith in Christ we must obey, the terms mutually interpret each other. Lastly, when properly understood, the notion of bringing “obedience of faith” to all nations if focusing on the change that occurs in a saved individual due to placing one’s faith in Christ. This verse is Paul’s missionary focus to the world.
Ok, do you see why I would not call faith a work?
For me, when James mentions works… I believe he is referring to the fruits of the Spirit; i.e. proof of one’s salvation. Person A claims salvation, person B proves it by their works (the manifestation of the Spirit working in their lives).
Your thoughts?
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Saying ‘faith alone’ is all that is required and then stating ‘faith alone includes repentance and confession’ is illogical at best.
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? really…
Can you have repentance without faith… no, for why would you repent if you didn’t believe you needed to.
Can you have true confession of your sins without faith… no, for there would be no reason to confess unless you trust the one you are confessing to.
True faith does include confessing yours sins, and repenting of your sins. When I say ‘a person has faith in Christ’ that should automatically signal to you that a particular person has confessed and repented of his sins.
Nothing illogical there 🙂
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Stewart,
I understand what you are saying, and I agree that faith is involved in all of it. However, they are not the same. I could lie and say that I believe Jesus is the son of God, and there would be neither repentance nor faith in that. That is why I say that faith, repentance, confession, and baptism are separate things. I believe the bible often deals with these things separately. Also, even though you may not consider faith, repentance, and confession works, the bible speaks of them as works. John 6:29 calls faith a work. James 2 seems to include evrything other than faith a work. The point is, If God requires it of us, then we must obey, which means we have to do something.
I think our difference on viewing what is a work is subtle, but it is very important none the less. If God tells me something or some action on my part is required for salvation, then it doesn’t really matter what we call it as much as it matters that we do it. We only know what saves based on what God has told us. He has separately named faith, repentance, confession, and baptism as requirements for us to meet to receive salvation.
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Ok, Yes John 6:29 says faith is a work, but not a work we do… see my point? God has placed faith in us. That means its not something we do, faith is a work of God not of man. Placing my faith in something is a selfless act of trust; not something I choose to do, but that which I allow.
Where in the bible do you ever see faith separate from repentance? Or faith separate from confession? When they are not mentioned they are most definitely implied. Additionally, when they are mentioned together in a passage that just shows how connected to one another they really are.
In the realm of theology, yes we could separate them and discuss them individually… but seriously, can you really discuss one without the others?
As for baptism I’m choosing to leave it out of the discussion until we arrive at an understanding of what a ‘work’ actually is. Because baptism is something we do, it is a work (which I think we would both agree on).
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Ok, I’ve been really busy lately, and have only just read through these last posts.
In response to Stewart’s assertion that we are saved by faith alone because faith motivates confession, repentance, etc:
My car won’t run without gas. Nevertheless, I would be in error if I decided to use the word “gas” to refer to my entire car.
Remember, in mathematics, the whole is equal to the sum of its parts; the whole is not equal to one part. The Bible makes a distinction between faith, repentance, and confession; therefore, so must we. I happen to agree with you that the other things are worthless if we don’t have faith – and I even agree with your point that no one would do the other elements if they didn’t have faith. But that doesn’t make them synonymous.
And even if you could sum them all up into “faith,” why do you stop there? Why not include baptism. Surely you can’t deny that the Bible does speak of it as though it saves (we’ve listed quite a number of passages that say that). So why not include it in your list? I think baptism qualifies as “responsive” and “selfless,” as you mentioned in comment 110.
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In reply to your last post, why would we need to separate faith from repentance? Or confession? Or even baptism? The point of the Bible is to get us to put them together. As you have said, confession w/out faith is useless. Repentance w/out faith is useless. And as James has pointed out, faith w/out obedience is also useless.
The point of our discussion should not be to separate these things, because alone, they do nothing. But when we put them all together (including baptism), then we get the whole “salvation package” that God has offered us. Each one hinges upon the others.
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Finally, I’d also like to reply to the posts around # 107. There, you and Matt were discussing Acts 22:16, and you offered the Greek for it. Well, I don’t know Greek; although, I can get my hands on an interlinear Bible, and will do so soon to recheck this. I do know English, however (I have sort of a natural affinity for grammar, scary as that may sound…). And I’d like to explain a little about the grammar used in this passage. The NKJV says it this way:
16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’
Here, Paul is told to do 3 things: Arise, be baptized, and wash. That’s all he’s told to do; those are the only verbs used in that command. The word “calling” is a verb form, but it’s not used as a verb. If Ananias were telling him to do something, he would have used the infinitive form, like he did with “arise, be baptized and wash.” Instead, “calling” has an “-ing” at the end of it, and that’s important.
This is an example of a participle, or maybe a gerund, which can be used as an adjective or a noun. In this case, “calling” describes what Paul is doing. Something in the actions Ananias commands can apparently be described as “calling on the name of the Lord.”
Now, saying that “calling on the name of the Lord” was how Paul would wash away his sins doesn’t make sense. After all, Ananias never told Paul to “call on the name of the Lord.” What he told Paul to do was “arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins.”
Personally, considering its symbolic nature, I’d say baptism is what Paul was being told would wash away his sins. We’re told in several passages that the remission (or removal/forgiveness) of sins is acheived in baptism. It seems pretty obvious to me that baptism is what washes away sins and, through this, we “call on the name of the Lord.”
That’s a lot more complicated than I like to get, but I think it’s an important point to understand. You probably disagree with the conclusion I come to on it, and that’s fine. But either way, I am absolutely certain that “calling” is not what’s being commanded here. It can’t be because of the “-ing” at the end.
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Stewart,
If faith is not something we do, then who does it? Why does God tell us to have faith if we don’t have a choice? John 6 tell us faith is a work that is required by God. Hebrews 11 tells us that without it we can’t please God. Now, I agree, faith is a mental work that leads to physical work, but it is still something God requires of us.
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Nate, you stated:
Now, saying that “calling on the name of the Lord” was how Paul would wash away his sins doesn’t make sense. After all, Ananias never told Paul to “call on the name of the Lord.” What he told Paul to do was “arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins.”
Actually yes it does make sense, for we are washed in the blood of Christ. You also forgot the word ‘and’… “arise and be baptized” is a clause … and … “wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord” is the second clause. You are correct that the subject verb is not ‘calling’ it is ‘rise up.’ However note one more thing about the word ‘calling’; this word epikalesamenos literally means “calling for an appeal to one higher than you for help.” Additionally the verb is in the Aorist tense, a one time in the past ‘snap shot’ event. Therefore, the calling is referring to something that has already happened. In other words the text literally reads: “Since you have called upon the name of the Lord who has washed away your sins, now rise up and be baptized.” So you are right, that ‘calling on Christ’ is not what is being commanded… that has already happened in the past.
Jim, good question.
Yes, God does require us to have faith. However, it is God who grants us faith. Once again John 6:29 tells us that faith comes from God, it is a work He does in us. Romans 3:10-12 tells us that no one seeks God, no one chooses Him. Faith is not something we choose to have. Remember we are chosen by God, we don’t choose God; Romans makes that clear.
I realize there is a tension here between human free will and God’s irresistible grace. I honestly believe we must leave finding an answer to that tension up to God. The Bible gives us just enough for me to realize that however that works it is beyond my understanding.
Do you see what I’m getting at though? Faith can not be considered a human work at all. Faith is a divine work of the Lord… “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure” (Phil 2:13). Furthermore, he is continuously perfecting that which He has begun (Phil 1:6). Faith comes from God. Confused? Think about it this way, God chose us… without that choosing we could not have faith in Him. Its not a circular argument either because everything is rooted in the Creator.
Which I believe leads us to Baptism.
Question: Since you hold to baptism as being a requirement of salvation, can you please explain why baptism is necessary for entrance into heaven?
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Stewart,
You make it sound as if I have no choice in whether I am saved or not. There is no evidence to suggest that God expects nothing of me. Romans 12:1 tells us we are to present ourselves as a “lining sacrifice” which is our “reasonable service”. Why? If God saves me without me doing anything, then why have a bible at all? God will choose to save me or not, and there is nothing I can do about it.
Obviously, I cannot believe this in light of what the bible says. Romans 10:17 tells us that “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God”. Our faith comes from considering the evidence presented in God’s word. Faith based on anything else is not the biblical faith that is required. I am surprised you would make this argument, for it contradicts so much that we read in the New Testament.
You ask “Why is baptism necessary for entrance into heaven?” The short answer would be that God commands it. Probably the best answer is Romans 6. Additionally, how can we enter heaven without being saved? it is only logical that what we must do for salvation is the same as we must do to enter heaven.
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I’m not saying we have no choice, because we do. What I am saying is faith begins with God, specifically the Holy Spirit pressuring us. It’s when we allow him into our lives as a mark of faith / a step of obedience that salvation occurs. We don’t choose God, He chooses us; its whether or not we allow Him into our lives that shows faith/trust/belief in Him. This is why I start with faith… and yes faith does come by hearing, etc. yet without the Holy Spirit working within a person, all the hearing in the world will amount to nothing.
On baptism, I agree that we cannot enter into heaven without being saved. But Romans 6 does not reference baptism as a requirement of salvation. Paul is using their public baptism as smack in their face as to why they should quit allowing repetitive sin into their lives. Simply they are now a new creation and the community knows this because they were baptized… so stop taking the grace of God in vain and start living contrary to the world.
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First of all, I disagree with your breakdown of Acts 22:16. In the English versions, it’s plain to see that “calling on the name of the Lord” is the description of what Paul would be doing by arising, being baptized, and washing away his sins. Those things don’t come about because he’s already called on the name of the Lord, but by doing the things Ananias commanded him, he would, in effect, be “calling on the name of the Lord.”
I don’t know much about the Aorist tense, so I’m going to research it more before I comment further on this issue. However, what I have found about it points out that the Aorist tense can be used in several different ways, so your description of it being “a one time in the past ’snap shot’ event” may be a little presumptious. It could mean other things.
Anyway, I also wanted to comment on your last response.
According to your first paragraph, it sounds like we pretty much believe the same thing. You think that God is appealing to us to answer his invitation, but that salvation still requires a response from us. So really, bringing up the “faith is of God” argument is fairly moot – we still both believe that faith is up to us as well.
And on baptism, how can you say Romans 6 doesn’t reference salvation? It states that we put to death our “old man” through baptism, and when we rise from the waters, we rise to walk in newness of life (and of course, it’s heavily compared to Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection).
Other passages also tell us that baptism removes our sin. Therefore, how could it not reference salvation? That’s been our point all along! If sin is what separates us from God, and baptism removes it, then baptism is obviously part of the salvation process! I don’t need to worry about whether that constitutes a “work” or not. The simple fact is, God has commanded we do it (you even admit that), and the Bible shows that it washes away our sin. The conclusion should be clear!
I would also like to point out that the one thing Romans 6 doesn’t point out, even obliquely, is how people shouldn’t be sinning because their baptism was so public. If the whole point of baptism is to publicly show people that you’ve already been saved, why was Paul only baptized in front of Ananias? Why was the Ethiopian eunuch only baptized in front of Phillip (at least, it doesn’t seem like anyone else is around…). If these accounts of conversion were relatively private, what was the point of baptism? Why not either skip it all together, or wait until it could be performed in front of a larger crowd?
Numerous passages tell us that baptism’s purpose is in cleansing us of our sin (very reminiscent of Naaman’s washing in the Jordan); I don’t know of a single one that states the real importance of baptism is in making a public confession of your salvation. I thought that our verbal confession already did something like that…
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Sorry its taken me so long to respond, this week has been busy.
Um concerning Acts 22:16, yes the aorist tense has multiple usages. Any use, still leads you to the conclusion that the ‘calling’ is an even which has already happened prior to the rest of the clauses. Furthermore, ‘washed’ is also in the aorist tense… which means that prior to baptism he was saved.
Romans 6, very difficult passage. Most scholars hold that Paul is referring to Spiritual baptism and not physical… and if you go that route, you points become moot. However, I hold to water baptism in this passage as you do. You are right that a public viewing of their baptism is not mentioned, yet it was public. Even in the case of Philip and the Ethiopian, his conversion was public knowledge… we have it recorded for us. Think about it this way, today when a person gets saved word spreads to others (even if they do not know him) and God is glorified through this news. Same is true when a person is baptized. Why should we think that it is any different back then? God is glorified through the good news. In fact back then I would assume this is most likely how word spread, I don’t think they had huge public baptisms (like they do in S. America) back then. My point is their baptism was public knowledge.
Why I stated Romans 6 doesn’t connect salvation with baptism is because it doesn’t.
Romans 6:1-4, the focus is on how we present ourselves to the word; how we walk. Yes salvation is inferred, but the focus is on our testimony being connected to baptism.
Romans 5-11, Once again there is an inference to baptism… but the focus is still on the concept of their baptism being an example of how we are to live. Paul is not saying that baptism causes us to live a certain way, he is saying that their baptism illustrates what has been spiritually done in us. Notice verse 10 contrasted with verse 11 and you’ll see the illustration. Verse 10a – “For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all…” verse 11a – “Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin…” the same is true for the second half of these verses: “…but the life that He lives, He lives to God” (10b); and then us, “…but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (11b). Paul uses their baptism to illustrate Christ’s death and to further explain why their baptism is an illustration of their new conduct. He doesn’t stop here though.
Romans 6:12-14… “Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body…” Christians are to presents themselves as righteous because they now are… this is all about conduct not about salvation. Salvation is already assumed to have happened and Paul is illustrating to the Roman church that their conduct matters and that they do not need to sin anymore.
He continues further attacking a question before they can even answer it, Romans 6:15-23. Shall we sin cause we are under grace? No. And notice Paul says nothing about loosing salvation… he goes after the fact that sin slaves you to sin. The fact of the matter is, “But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you become slaves of righteousness” (Romans 6:17-18). He is not saying that Christians don’t sin–because we do. Paul is saying that we can actually chose to live a righteous life now.
Along the same lines I believe this is why Paul states in 1 Corinthians “All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any” (6:12) and again in 10:23. He is saying that under Christ we can do anything, you cannot loose salvation once attained; yet, does what you are doing glorify God? If not, don’t do it. Additionally, the Corinthian church had many sinful issues going on, yet Paul refers to them as believers (see 1 Cor 1:4-9). If the most defiled church of early Christianity was still considered blameless (1:8), I think the notion of loosing salvation is moot.
Ok lastly 1 Peter 3:18-22
Yes, Peter is comparing saving 8 members of the human race by the flood waters with baptism. Notice exactly what he is saying:
1) This baptism is referred to as an antitype, meaning opposite; i.e. not by water.
2) This baptism saves through Christ’s resurrection.
3) This baptism does not remove sin, but instead brings the person into a state of communion with God.
The only answer is that this baptism of salvation is Spiritual in nature.. Peter is saying that as save once came to 8 individuals by the flood waters, now Christ’s resurrection has brought the offer of salvation to all through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Peter is referring to Baptism of the Spirit, not the physical water baptism.
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Stewart, I’m afraid you’re simply trying as hard as you can to see only what you want to see. There are many, many passages that tell us what baptism is for, yet you refuse to see them for what they are. We’ve also listed numerous passages that teach us if we turn from God, we no longer have a hope for salvation. Again, you refuse to see it.
I really don’t know what else to say. If your interpretation is right about Acts 22:16, then perhaps you should write a new translation of the Bible, because every English version I’ve ever read is in contrast to what you’ve said.
The word “antitype” does not typically mean “opposite.” Just look it up. It’s usually used in making comparisons (and makes much more sense that way in 1 Pet 3:21).
In your exegesis of Romans 6, you’ve inserted the idea that baptism has nothing to do with salvation, even though the text there doesn’t indicate that. In fact, it seems that Paul is appealing to the fact that they’ve been baptized to remind them (and prove to them) that they have in fact been saved. There’s also absolutely no grounds for your belief that turning back to sin won’t affect your saved status – the passage in Romans 5-6 certainly doesn’t make that claim. You quoted where Paul told them they are “slaves to sin” if they live a sinful life, but you somehow don’t think that has anything to do with their salvation. Where are we told that?
The subject of Holy Spirit baptism is an interesting one, but the Bible teaches that it was never used for salvation. In Acts 1, Jesus told the apostles that the Holy Spirit would come upon them to give them the knowledge they would need now that he was leaving. It came upon them in Acts 2, and it had nothing to do with salvation – the apostles has already been saved. If you’d like to look into it further, check out this link.
I’ll continue to answer your comments on this thread, but I feel like we’re just going round and round in circles. I hope and pray that both of us will open our eyes to God’s word and read it for what it says – not what we already think it says.
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Let me ask you a question. Let’s look at Acts 2:38:
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Now, I know you don’t believe this passage teaches that baptism saves us, or washes away sin. But in your opinion, for it to teach that idea (that baptism is needed for salvation), what would it need to say? How should it be written to support that idea?
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