In my last post, discussion turned to the question of whether or not we need God. One of my regular contributors, William, posted the following comment, and I felt it deserved its own post:
I am just having problems understanding whether humans “need” a god.
Do humans “need” a father? it may be beneficial if it’s a good father, but we can see many who get along fine who have not had a father, so “need” is the wrong term.
And what if that father is never around, left before you were born, and only left a letter to you explaining (not always in the easiest or most direct of terms) how he expects you to behave and promises that he’ll take care of you and promises to severely punish you for disobedience or for leaving him?
is that a good father? is that a father we need? isn’t it laughable that such a father could even begin to threaten the child for “leaving him” (since the father clearly left the child) not to mention how absurd it is to think that such a father actually does anything to really take care of the child?
I’m having a hard time understanding how we’re ingrained to “need” such a father, or why we’d even call such a father good?
Finding Truth 
Josh, do you ever question whether or not Christianity is really true, or do you just accept it a priori? I’m not asking to be rude or make a point — I’m just genuinely curious. It’s hard for me to understand how you can see that so many of these things don’t make sense and don’t have an explanation, yet never seem to waver in your conviction that they’re true.
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“do you ever question whether or not Christianity is really true”
Of course I do. I do that a lot. I’d imagine we all doubt sometimes whether what we believe is the truth. I’ve done what I feel is a reasonable amount of digging into other worldviews, and I continue to do so by reading blogs like this, and books, and listening to lectures by Harris, and others. I usually come away thinking that their viewpoint makes even less sense than my own. This may sound outrageous, but I do know how ridiculous some of my beliefs sound to other people, and myself sometimes. If I didn’t believe it down to my core, I wouldn’t defend it for a second.
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In the end, Nate, I think the best answer I can give is to stand with the writer of Hebrews:
“Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see.”
I have faith in things that are unseen, unproven, and sometimes unbelievable. I can’t tell you why I continue to have faith at times, as my doubts seem overwhelming. I believe like a child, as Dostoevsky put it. I think, when you look at things through the eyes of faith you see things differently than when you are looking for reason and logic to guide your path. And, like I said, I can’t answer why I maintain that faith or why you don’t seem to have it. Maybe it’s just a joke I play on myself. But “believing like a child” gives me the hope that Jesus has accomplished, and will bring to total fulfillment, everything promised in the NT.
“I believe like a child that suffering will be healed and made up for, that all the humiliating absurdity of human contradictions will vanish like a pitiful mirage, like the despicable fabrication of the impotent and infinitely small Euclidean mind of man, that in the world’s finale, at the moment of eternal harmony, something so precious will come to pass that it will suffice for all hearts, for the comforting of all resentments, for the atonement of all the crimes of humanity, for all the blood that they’ve shed; that it will make it not only possible to forgive but to justify all that has happened.” – Dostoevsky
That’s the best I got, Nate 🙂
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Thanks for sharing your perspective, Josh, even though we vehemently disagree.
I think the kind of faith you’re describing is exactly what keeps people rooted in the religions they’re raised with. How can a Muslim ever leave Islam if he refuses to examine its problems? The same goes for every religion.
I strongly disagree with Dostoevsky’s quote. To bemoan human contradictions, when the Bible is rife with them is extremely hypocritical to me. We should either be trying to unravel all contradictions, or we should stop complaining about them. And to call Euclid small, when his theories form some of the core principles of mathematics is unthinkable. At least math is one of the few things we can actually prove.
We live in a rational universe that operates logically. We learn more, understand more, and make better decisions when we rely on reason. To say that the author of the universe can only be understood by abandoning reason is a position I can’t understand or agree with. Such a god is a liar, as I see it, since everything else he’s authored runs completely counter to that idea. I don’t think there’s much else you and I can say on this, because we’re approaching it from such different perspectives that we might as well be speaking different languages. I wish it was different.
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Josh, this where our (yours and mine) misunderstanding lies, I think. In our everyday life the use of logic and reason help us, they make life easier and typically better – and usually if we or others disregard both logic and reason, the opposite is true; things usually get harder and don’t workout as well.
It seems that we should use logic and reason to our benefit all the time, except when it comes to “god’s word?” It seems odd that our perfectly loving and perfectly perfect creator would make the only exception to the use of logic and reason when it comes to understanding his inspired word… that he had men write for all of us…
And “I believe like a child…. that all the humiliating absurdity of human contradictions will vanish like a pitiful mirage…” Okay, but even so, the contradictions in the bible will still be there. If contradictions are problematic for humans, why aren’t they for the bible as well?
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Hey JudahFirst
Rob Bell is one of my favorite Authors. I just finished, “What we talk about when we talk about God. His writings have been a big influence. Adam Hamilton is another great Pastor/Author. “Seeing gray in a World of black and white” also, “When Christians get it wrong”
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Josh, that was beautiful! And something I can stand with you on. 🙂 God bless!
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KCChief1, I have “What we talk about when we talk about God” on my ‘to-read list’. I’ve read all of his others and still think “Jesus Wants to Save Christians” is the best so far. While I liked “Love Wins”, it was not something so eye-opening for me since my husband and I had already been believing that stuff for 6 years prior to the book’s release (and felt the effects of our having moved out into left field from the utter rejection of our evangelical friends).
I was not surprised to see Rob leave his church soon after the book’s release. I didn’t imagine his community was that much different from the rest of them I’ve seen… Shame, really. For a group that claims to be preaching love, Christians are some of the most hateful people I know! 😦
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Although Adam Hamilton has not left his Megachurch in Kansas City, he did lose several thousand members after his book “Seeing gray in a world of black and white” came out. He tried to be inclusive of homosexuals and people of other faiths in his book and you know what “Hit the fan” 🙂
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No DOUBT! Same thing that happened to us when we came out believing in Ultimate Reconciliation of All (since in Romans 5, all really means ‘all’). 🙂
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Nate,
I enjoyed your video of the Quiz Show ! Isn’t that the way it really is ! 🙂
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Oh my ! You took “All” literally ???? Just kidding ! I feel the same way !
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KC, hehehe
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Nate & William –
Yeah. We are definitely coming from different places. Logic and reason have their place, but I would hardly say that they make me happy, or I use them in everything I do. I make a lot of decisions in my job (as a social worker) that come from my gut and defy anything resembling logic and reason in order to reach some of the people with whom I work. If I dealt with them only on a logical and reasonable basis I would fail a majority of the time. Compassion and instinct win out a lot of the time. I don’t base what I eat on logic or reason, either – I know this because my doctor frequently tells me so.
One question I do have for you both: It seems to me, in a world that is completely and utterly without meaning (no purpose in being created, and nothing left at the annihilation of the universe), illogical and unreasonable to continue moving forward and trying to “better” yourself when, ultimately, there is no point to our existence. How do you both reconcile your firm grip on logic and reason with your continued work to accomplish things that, in the end of the universe, will mean nothing? Seems a lot like Sisyphus’ dilemma.
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Hey, KC, have you ever heard of Peter Hiett? He’s a teacher out of Colorado who was excommunicated from his denomination for coming out believing what we do. He wrote THE most beautiful letter in response that I have ever seen. If you can find it, it should be somewhere on his church website: http://www.tsdowntown.com. Enjoy!
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Actually, I can’t find Peter’s letter to the ECC on the new website, but I did find this, which I thought was very interesting: http://www.tsdowntown.com/a-theology-of-relentless-love/essays-and-articles/25-about-us/94-my-theological-journey. Enjoy, KC (and others who read it)!
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No, I have not. But I will check him out. Thanks ! I do follow John Shelby Spong who sounds like this other person you described. He retired as a Bishop from the Anglican Church.
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um, yeah, I see your point, josh. I guess ‘ll begin by saying that while I think nate claims to be some type of atheist, i see myself as agnostic. There could be a god, and I’d even like for there to be, but i am convinced it is not the god of the bible.
but even so, pointless? that’s a bit of an assumption too I think. regardless, if the long term is pointless because of no afterlife, the short term has much purpose. Our genes evidently want us to move forward so that is one reason I do. another reason is curiosity and another is doing as much as i can for my children and loved ones.
and also, i am here. i do in fact exist today, just as i did yesterday. I can sit and become stale because I dont know if i’ll be around tomorrow, or because i dont think there have been mansions prepared for me in heaven, or because I dont think Abraham is waiting to welcome into the afterlife, or I can do all that I can while I am here to better myself and to leave a mark for my children, etc. and also because I enjoy it. I dont find life miserable or torture. I enjoy myself. and like being very hungry leads to the tastiest of meals, I think it’s the unpleasantness of life that makes us really appreciate the goodness of life.
I found your response to logic and reason interesting. i dont think that compassion and instinct have to oppose reason or logic. And as far as people go, i know that we dont always use logic or reason – and, as you pointed out with your diet, to our detriment. but i do think we should try. One reason most of us wouldnt blindfold ourselves and sprint into traffic – it’s just not good sense.
Humans depend on one another. It’s the way we were created or the way we evolved or whatever. We need compassion to better live with one another and consequently to better survive. so using logic and reason probably should lead toward compassion
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Josh, you didn’t ask me because I haven’t been an active participant in this discussion, but I hope you’ll allow me to answer your last question.
The fact is, the only time we have is NOW. None of us know the future. You and others may rely on the Bible and its promises for a future life, but there is no proof that this will ever come to pass. I think those of us who rely on logic and reason do so because we have come to the place where we believe it’s our present life that counts. Thus, to us, it is not illogical or unreasonable to better ourselves and do what we can to make this world a better place to live in.
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Very well put, Nan !
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Yes, I agree with what Nan and William have said. First of all, logic and reason do not preclude compassion or emotion. Even in your job as a social worker, I doubt that you never use logic and reason. Don’t you look at someone’s lifestyle to better understand how to help that person? While their predicament may pull at your heartstrings, you’re also using logic and reasoning to determine the causes and possible solutions to their situation.
When it comes to looking for the ultimate truth of existence, I fear that if we leave logic and reason in the dust, we’re doomed for failure. I know that earlier, JudahFirst mentioned how beautifully you had written your position. I was shocked to read that, because I thought it was depressing. I’m not trying to be rude or dismissive — I just can’t imagine having a worldview in which I believe the creator of the universe operates illogically. I think that would be a frightening way to look at the world. How would you know what to expect from an all-powerful, but utterly incomprehensible individual?
In a way, I think I give God more credit than that. If he exists, and he created our universe, then he would have to be brilliant and logical. If he wanted me to understand something, then he would be able to communicate it to me in a way I understand, since he designed me with a purpose in mind. And if I strive to use logic and reason in my own life, how could he be disappointed by that?
But I digress. As to purpose, I find that my life has a lot of purpose. It’s the purpose that I put into it. If all I have is this life, then my life-span is my eternity. After all, in a true timeless eternity, there’s no way to measure time, because there’s never an end to it. So eternity becomes the sum of your existence. In that way, both of us believe in “eternity” — I just believe that mine happens now.
And if you’re positing that our life has no meaning because we don’t have a “higher” purpose, then even if you were right, what meaning would God have? By definition there’s no higher purpose than he, but according to you, that’s not enough to give a life meaning. He should have a higher purpose.
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Nate-
I don’t take what you wrote as rude or dismissive. I find your worldview just as depressing as you find mine :).
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Awesome! 😉
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Nate & Josh
Though I am a Deist, I am probably closer to Nate’s end of the spectrum . I feel better now than I ever felt being a Christian. I feel liberated from guilt most of all. I do believe in God but no longer feel afraid of him or that I have to have a relationship with Him. My desire to do good and make others and myself happy is because of my gratitude for being here and experiencing as much of His Creation as life has to offer. If there is an afterlife and God wants me to spend it with Him, Great ! If not, I am no longer worried about an eternal punishment. My desire is to concentrate on the “Now” . Be all I can be “Now”
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I’m not sure I believe in “God” any more (certainly not the Christian God!), but everything else you said, I totally agree. I’ve also been on the guilt route and it’s soooo nice to be FREE!
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