In my last post, discussion turned to the question of whether or not we need God. One of my regular contributors, William, posted the following comment, and I felt it deserved its own post:
I am just having problems understanding whether humans “need” a god.
Do humans “need” a father? it may be beneficial if it’s a good father, but we can see many who get along fine who have not had a father, so “need” is the wrong term.
And what if that father is never around, left before you were born, and only left a letter to you explaining (not always in the easiest or most direct of terms) how he expects you to behave and promises that he’ll take care of you and promises to severely punish you for disobedience or for leaving him?
is that a good father? is that a father we need? isn’t it laughable that such a father could even begin to threaten the child for “leaving him” (since the father clearly left the child) not to mention how absurd it is to think that such a father actually does anything to really take care of the child?
I’m having a hard time understanding how we’re ingrained to “need” such a father, or why we’d even call such a father good?
Finding Truth 
Neither patience nor mercy are in my gift mix, William. 😉
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and of course it depends what He asks, or does it?
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Portal001, if the biblical god made it clear that he was actually a god and especially the only god, then absolutely. I have no problems submitting when i need to. this isnt rebellion on may part. I can only assure you.
I was a fervent believer for many years, and now that i am not, i dont live any differently – except for church…
a question for you, what makes you believe in the biblical god despite the problems with the bible?
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Fear
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just to be honest, although fear doesn’t mean its true or not true, fear itself is not a validation of belief
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If the Biblical God asked me to offer up my Son as a sacrifice to Him, then the answer would be no.
Gen 22:2, ” And He said: ‘Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.’
Jer 19:5 , “They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!”
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why do you ask?
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KC, I do not believe God was asking Abraham to offer his son. That was a common pagan practice (as you see in Jeremiah) at that time. Instead, God was taking Abraham through a lesson in what He is NOT like (the other pagan gods). 🙂
Portal, “Perfect love casts out fear.” I’m sorry that you believe out of fear. I have come to believe that God is not angry and we have no need to fear Him (the terrorizing, paralyzing kind of fear). Respect is one thing, fear completely another. Fear involves punishment due to lawbreaking, but if God is all about grace and forgiveness then where is the punishment? Where is the fear?
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fear is in the punishment.
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JudahFirst, The lesson also involved Abraham holding a knife to Isaac’s throat. Had God kept silent, would Abraham have slit Isaac’s throat ? What a horrible way to teach a lesson if you are correct. I can’t think of a situation where I would ever hold a knife to one of my children’s throats. That’s just my opinion.
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I’d actually rather be nothing than go to heaven, this really resonates with me
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But what I rather and what is truth is not necessarily the same
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KC, you have to consider how common a practice this was in those days.Abraham was not surprised when God “told” him to go up and offer Isaac. He watched people around him do it all the time. It may seem horrible to you, but it was likely not that horrible to Abraham (a really good example of how we need to consider the audience when working at interpretation).
I would go so far as to say that Abraham expected God to ask this of him, simply because it was so much a part of the culture in which he lived. (I would think if it wasn’t, Isaac at 13 would have simply overpowered his elderly father and high-tailed it outta there…)
You may think this a cruel way to teach a lesson, but imagine this scenario:
You live in a world where the gods demand appeasement, often asking for a blood sacrifice of someone you love dearly. Abraham was old and knew he was only going to have the 1 son. He lived in constant fear that one day God would ask him to sacrifice Isaac – what if Abraham had made God angry? What if he had not done enough to appease him already? What if Abraham really didn’t love God enough? When would God demand his only (and beloved) son??
And then the day comes. Consider the resignation probably in Abraham’s demeanor and voice as he put the things together he would need to kill his ONLY son in sacrifice to the only God he understood (a perfect, violent, demanding God who lusts after blood). (I’m always amazed when I read this story that Sarah let him take Isaac!) Now we get to the sacrifice.
Abraham was completely ready to do this! He really BELIEVED this is how the world worked. (Contrast, you in no way, shape, or form have ever believed this – but Abraham REALLY did!) Now at the very moment when he was going to do what he believed was normal – God stops him. And teaches him a lesson he could not have learned any other way. I mean, think about it. What if God had just told Abraham that He didn’t want his son sacrificed to him. 1. I imagine Abraham would think for sure that he wasn’t hearing things correctly – in his world this was the way things worked. 2. There is nothing more powerful that the intense lesson God put Abraham through – imagine Abraham’s relief and SURPRISE! to find that the God talking to him was NOT like all the other gods around!!
This was merely the beginning of the deconstruction of what mankind believed God was like. I believe the sacrificial system was the same – a picture of what God is NOT like (“I do not delight in sacrifices or the blood of lambs or goats…”) God had to take Israel (beginning with Abraham) through the traces so to speak, in order to teach them and then He did the ultimate: came to them and then HE sacrificed Jesus to US putting to death forever the idea that God needs a sacrifice.
Anyway, that’s my take on it. 🙂
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JudahFirst,
“I have come to believe that God is not angry and we have no need to fear Him (the terrorizing, paralyzing kind of fear).”
I don’t want to offend you, but is that wishful thinking?
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P.S. WE are the violent ones, not God. WE demand punishment, not God. The LAW demands a sacrifice, not God.
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Portal, nope. Jesus loved me with perfect love. I have nothing to fear from Him or His Father. I may yet need to fear the natural consequences of my own sin (if I shoot someone, I’ll likely spend the rest of my life in prison), but I fear no punishment from God. Seriously.
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If the biblical God does exist then doesn’t He hate the wrong doer? doesn’t He demand at least Israel to obey? doesn’t He desire us to follow? Will He not judge us all according to our works?
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Portal, and no offense taken. 🙂
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Portal, we judge ourselves by our works. God doesn’t judge us that way. He understands our weakness. He does not demand obedience because he knows we can’t keep even our own laws (when’s the last time you tried to give something up or made a New Year’s resolution and actually accomplished it … if you did, you are rare!). God is not like us. But we are trying our best to make Him so.
I heard once time: “On the sixth day God created man in His own image and mankind has been returning the favor ever since.” 🙂
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JudahFirst, I am glad you are at peace 🙂 but to me the bible is confronting, and it is unsettling. What Jesus teaches is confronting (and I’m not just talking about the loving others bit) what He calls us to do is full on. He even asks us to consider the cost. I want God to be real, a loving God to be real. I hope He is real, but not to get into heaven if others don’t. I don’t know, Im only a human, but why does this God experiment even have to happen, if it is true?
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KC, for more on how God worked against the cultural norms with Abraham, you can check out my blog called “Walking through the Pieces”.
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What is God proving? that we are fallen? He knows that? maybe He’s not proving anything. But whats with this whole comedy called life? the beauty? the cruelty? what is God showing us? that He is just? Why does He need witnesses besuides Himself to witness He is God?
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besides*
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JudahFirst, It may have been common for Pagans to sacrifice children to their Gods but it wasn’t common with the Bible God. I refer again back to Jer 19:5 , “They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!” Since Jer 19:5 was probably written after the Genesis story, the Bible God has to be lying here. Am I missing something ?
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Portal –
I believe, correctly read, the NT answers your questions like this:
1. “If the biblical God does exist then doesn’t He hate the wrong doer? NO.
2. “doesn’t He demand at least Israel to obey?” Demand? NO. Desire? YES.
3. “doesn’t He desire us to follow?” YES.
4. “Will He not judge us all according to our works?” NO. He will judge us according to HIS OWN work.
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