In my last post, discussion turned to the question of whether or not we need God. One of my regular contributors, William, posted the following comment, and I felt it deserved its own post:
I am just having problems understanding whether humans “need” a god.
Do humans “need” a father? it may be beneficial if it’s a good father, but we can see many who get along fine who have not had a father, so “need” is the wrong term.
And what if that father is never around, left before you were born, and only left a letter to you explaining (not always in the easiest or most direct of terms) how he expects you to behave and promises that he’ll take care of you and promises to severely punish you for disobedience or for leaving him?
is that a good father? is that a father we need? isn’t it laughable that such a father could even begin to threaten the child for “leaving him” (since the father clearly left the child) not to mention how absurd it is to think that such a father actually does anything to really take care of the child?
I’m having a hard time understanding how we’re ingrained to “need” such a father, or why we’d even call such a father good?
Finding Truth 
“You do realize the bible wasn’t the first religious text, right, or that Judaism wasn’t the first religion?”
Yeah I know, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Druidism to name a few 🙂
Thanks, and thanks again for your thoughts as well 🙂
LikeLike
“I actually feel, like Ive said before, that we have had some of the same questions. If you don’t mind me asking, When you were seeking God as a believer what were some of your thought processes?”
When I was seeking god as a believing christian, I searched the bible. at the time, i never even thought to question it. I had always been told that nothing “really known” contradicted the bible. I had never thought to compare on passage with another, assuming it was perfect and that it just “fit” somehow.
I was looking at gleaning the moral messages and seeing how it could better my character. When I came upon parts that looked questionable or didnt seem to make good moral or rational sense, i asked an older person that i respected a great deal. and I constantly prayed for wisdom in understanding God’s word better.
In other words, I never questioned the source. i always just “knew” the source was the right one. I now suppose that Muslims think the same way about the koran.
Now I still search for truth, but I have broadened that search and think i am more consistent in the way I do it now.
I later realized my earlier assumptions were wrong. And I can glean moral and character lessons from just about anything if that’s what i’m looking for. I think that’s what happens when you spend a lot of time really examining yourself.
does that answer your question?
LikeLike
William: “When I came upon parts that looked questionable or didnt seem to make good moral or rational sense, i asked an older person that i respected a great deal.”
And I’ll wager the answers you received didn’t help much. I say this because I went down that same route and it essentially took me nowhere. It wasn’t until I began my own research and reading (outside the “source”) that the answers began to appear.
It might be worth a shot, Ryan.
LikeLike
yep, although for many years I just thought I wasn’t wise enough to see it myself yet. the bible was right after all? right?
finally, something happened to make me consider the possibility that the bible was only a product of man, and it all started making so much more sense. The things that gave me questions before, that didnt seem to make sense, were really just nonsense.
and I imagine many people of religions that most christians would call false probably do the same things. They probably have questions, ask an older, wiser person and couple that with “who am i to question god?” and “nothing is impossible for god,” etc, etc, that ole song just keeps playing…
LikeLike
William,
Yeah that does answer my question, thanks
What if God is the source though? what if Jesus is the Word, and the bible is a pointer, not God itself?
Nan,
I plan to keep reading outside the bible as well
LikeLike
The Bible never actually claims itself to be the word, or even perfect to my understanding, but to be instead a record.
It does state thought that Jesus is the Word (John 1:1-18) (Revelation 19:13).
Thats my understanding anyway
LikeLike
though*
LikeLike
I’ve decided ’m going to stop posting for a while,
I’ll keep reading though,
Nate –Thanks for creating this space to explore and converse, your humility and patience is inspiring,
UnkleE – again, you’re clear, organised explanations and kind and gracious nature has given me so much,
Sorry for not including everyone’s names, I don’t want to leave people out, there are just so many of you, thank you for the discussions, and you know who you all are 🙂
You’re all great people, with so many differences, but so many qualities.
For those who are not posting when I get back,
it has been a real honour to share discussions with you all 🙂 .
All the best
LikeLike
William, that’s perhaps the nicest thing anyone has said to me on the internet. Thanks you very much. (Sometimes I don’t understand myself or like myself (and that’s the truth!).
Best wishes Ryan.
LikeLike
Ryan,
I just want you to know that it is possible to think and to experience the universe, and ourselves as a part of it, in both religious and naturalistic ways. For those who sometimes experience life religiously, it can be entirely rational to form beliefs reflecting that mode of experience. At the same time it is equally rational for those who do not participate in the field of religious experience not to hold such beliefs, and to assume that these experiences are simply projections of our human desires and ideals. In other words, we are facing an issue of fact which is at present veiled in ambiguity, so that both belief and disbelief at present carry with them the risk of profound error. The believer risks the possibility of being self-deceived and the non-believer risks shutting out the most valuable of all realities. Given this choice, William James would urge, and surely with reason and evidence, that we have the right to choose for ourselves. People are therefore justified in holding beliefs that are grounded either wholly in their own religious experience or in the experience of the historical tradition to which they belong, this being in turn confirmed by their own much slighter range and intensity of religious experience. It seems that we stand, as finite and ignorant beings, in a universe that both invites religious belief and yet holds over us the possibility that this invitation may be a deception.
Good luck in your journey
Persto
LikeLike
Nate and UnkleE
Just one more thing,
“Nate –Thanks for creating this space to explore and converse, your humility and patience is inspiring”
I mean inspiring in the context that you value the people involved in discussion as well as the discussion itself 🙂 and that speaks volumes.
UnkleE, I think both you and Nate share this inspiring quality of valuing people, as well as discussion.
Kind regards, and best wishes
Ryan
LikeLike
Thanks Persto,
You were also included in that fantastic group of people I was referring to before. I really like how carefully you consider and convey your thoughts.
All the best to you as well 🙂
LikeLike
Excellent Persto! This sums things up eloquently. As far as we know, we only get one life here on earth, and this is the dilemma facing us all. I can well understand how people end up on either side of those choices. My faith is probably partially based on the fact that I am not going to die wondering, as the saying goes. (Though I suspect I will keep questioning some things until I fall off the perch!)
Were they your own words, or a quote? I would like to use the quote on my own website if I may (not sure how yet, but I’ll think of something).
LikeLike
Thank you.
I am sure the idea is not original. I think both Russell and Sagan said something similar once. However, I believe I stumbled upon the idea in a philosophy of religion course.
By all means, use the quote in whatever way you like.
Regards
LikeLike
Persto, thanks for that eloquently worded comment!
And Ryan, thanks for all your kind comments. We’re going to miss you around here, so don’t be gone too long! 🙂
LikeLike
Persto,
This comment of yours (starting with “I just want you to know that it is possible to think and to experience the universe, and ourselves as a part of it, in both religious and naturalistic ways…”) truly struck a chord with me. Your entire comment describes very well my own point of view. So well written! Thank you!
LikeLike
We all need to get together for a drink or dinner or something. 😉 You guys are great! Makes me miss the forums and chat rooms I used to frequent…
LikeLike