In my last post, discussion turned to the question of whether or not we need God. One of my regular contributors, William, posted the following comment, and I felt it deserved its own post:
I am just having problems understanding whether humans “need” a god.
Do humans “need” a father? it may be beneficial if it’s a good father, but we can see many who get along fine who have not had a father, so “need” is the wrong term.
And what if that father is never around, left before you were born, and only left a letter to you explaining (not always in the easiest or most direct of terms) how he expects you to behave and promises that he’ll take care of you and promises to severely punish you for disobedience or for leaving him?
is that a good father? is that a father we need? isn’t it laughable that such a father could even begin to threaten the child for “leaving him” (since the father clearly left the child) not to mention how absurd it is to think that such a father actually does anything to really take care of the child?
I’m having a hard time understanding how we’re ingrained to “need” such a father, or why we’d even call such a father good?
Finding Truth 
Couldn’t have done it without your help, Nate ! Glad you liked it.
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Nate – “By the way, do you think it’s impossible for God to communicate perfectly to people who are separated by such great periods of time in one writing?”
Yes. I could totally be wrong about that. Here’s how I see it: I think the limitations we have as finite creatures makes perfect communication to us impossible. You might see this as splitting hairs, but I would not say the communication is imperfect. Just that the repository is. God’s communication to Adam and Eve was pretty clear. Yet, they had the choice to disobey.
“I’m not saying that the Bible shouldn’t use figurative language. I’m saying that if it’s doing so, it should explain that”
This is an assumption on your part. There’s nothing requiring this.
“You also seem to agree that it would be silly to believe someone’s a werewolf — unless they were speaking figuratively about their personality/behavior.”
I agree with you that it is silly because I don’t have any reason to think otherwise. I have oodles and oodles of reasons to believe that the narrative set forth throughout scripture is true.
kcchief1 – “You’re asking US to do something most Christians and Churches won’t do…..which is to be lenient when it comes to the Bible. You can’t have it both ways.”
I don’t have to have it both ways because I’m not demanding that you are strict in that way with scripture.
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If God doesn’t require me to believe it, then I agree with you.
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Josh: I don’t have to have it both ways because I’m not demanding that you are strict in that way with scripture.
Good ! So I don’t have to stick with the Bible interpretation that says Jesus is the only way. I can be lenient and say Jesus is just one of possibly many ways. Right ?
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“If God doesn’t require me to believe it, then I agree with you.”
This is still an assumption on your part. You’re leveling these conditions with no grounds to do so.
Additionally, I wouldn’t grant the statement that God “requires” you to believe it. He’s given you the freedom to not believe. Just as he’s given me the freedom to believe, yet also be a total $%*&-up and miscommunicate him to others. Why has he allowed that level of freedom? Your guess is as good as mine.
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For some reason, I get the idea that you mean I have this kind of freedom:
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Great video Nate ! I think you’ve nailed it !
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Josh, you confuse me. It seems like to me you’re coming in all over the place. You have said that you cant understand the bible (paraphrasing) yet you speak as if you understand it all better than we do.
Now you’re saying that god doesn’t require belief. maybe you mean he doesn’t “force” belief? It is a requirement of his. without it, you’re not acceptable to him according to the bible – that’s a requirement isn’t it?
do this or I’ll torture/punish you forever. Still sounds like a requirement.
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I think if Christ is the Only Way – then I assume at least some people would see this as an inconvenient Truth
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No. Your taxes are already paid. Your choice is to accept that they are paid and live in the freedom, or to refuse to believe they are paid and continue trying to work off your imagined debt.
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or simply a myth.
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Just to note, Jesus does go on though to explain His parables to His disciples – and also to us via the bible.
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If Christ were the only way, it’s too bad that billions of Asians, Europeans, North & South Americans died over the past 2000 years without ever hearing about this.
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Wililam- “without it, you’re not acceptable to him according to the bible – that’s a requirement isn’t it?”
No, it isn’t a requirement. You are still acceptable even if you don’t believe it. Jesus has wiped out any guilt/sin debt.
“You have said that you cant understand the bible (paraphrasing) yet you speak as if you understand it all better than we do.”
I don’t have answers to some of the questions that have been asked, so it is true I don’t understand it all. It is also true that I think I understand the core of what it teaches about grace. The things I think are clear are what I’m communicating.
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Great discussion 🙂
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So Josh, you don’t believe in Hell?
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Josh, I’m not sure that I follow. I’m not trying to pay any spiritual taxes and I already pay my own real taxes.
let’s start over. Let me apologize for being a bit of a jerk. I do that sometimes and I am sorry. I just don’t get this. It appears to me that many believers use conflicting arguments when it suits their current argument, changing arguing points as often as needed. It’s frustrating because it seems elusive and disingenuous. I find it practically pointless to have a discussion with people who seem to change the rules when it suits them.
Now maybe the bible is from god and maybe the man jesus is really the literal son of god – but maybe the man authors of the bible were lying or misinformed or just mistaken despite their best intentions. We (presumably you as well) don’t accept these types of claims from everyone. Why?
Why do many bible believers treat the bible as if it is the ONLY “known” and use it to validate science, archaeology and history, instead of the other way around?
Why put so much faith in men you have never met, who make claims about things you have never seen or witnessed? And I’m not talking the exact events, but other supernatural events like them.
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Josh, if Jesus has “wiped out any guilt/sin debt” why must I worry about my eternal destiny? Based on this statement, I’m sinless and thus will go to “heaven.” Where does the teaching come from that says I must “accept Christ” in order to avoid eternal punishment? Oh wait. I know. From Paul, who, in my estimation, has dubious credits.
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“Additionally, I probably shouldn’t have used the word “understand”. I’m not claiming understanding. I’m claiming I don’t understand it all, and I am willing to accept that, if God exists, I will not be able to comprehend him.”
this is kind of what I mean… Didn’t you say this just yesterday?
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Josh, I think I see where your coming from, and I like how you take the time to discuss these things. Thanks for your contribution, it helps me understand.
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I don’t want to leave this discussion, but its really late here, till next time 🙂
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The tax illustration is only applicable to the version of Christianity which says you owe God something in the first place. I don’t believe any of that premise, therefore the Evangelical idea of salvation has lost any meaning for me. God isn’t looking for any type of payment for anything. There is not punishment beyond the natural consequences around us (if I jump out of a 10-story building, I doubt my body is going to survive the force of gravity). I would like God to be able to transform me (you know, the caterpillar/butterfly thingy?). Maybe that kind of change feels like punishment … ? Wonder what the caterpillar feels in the crystallis? (wonder how you spell that word in the first place…?)
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And if Jesus paid my taxes, why is God still trying to collect from me?
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If there’s no punishment, then fine. God can be as mysterious as he wants, because it doesn’t matter if we don’t figure it out. But if that’s the case, I’m not sure why we’re debating the Bible so much. I mostly write against fundamentalism…
Josh seems to dislike my take on the Bible, but I have trouble seeing how he can agree with much of it if he doesn’t believe there’s any kind of punishment in the afterlife?
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Having had the privilege of spending time in Egypt and Greece , I got to see first hand how heavily Judaism and Christianity borrowed from them. Baptism, Circumcision, The Trinity, Eternal Life….it goes on and on. This is when I had to own up to the conclusion that all Religions were Man Made and Borrowed. I still believe in a Deity as the Cause of this Big Bang but what He wants to show us beyond this, I have to be like the Agnostic , “I cannot know”
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