In my last post, discussion turned to the question of whether or not we need God. One of my regular contributors, William, posted the following comment, and I felt it deserved its own post:
I am just having problems understanding whether humans “need” a god.
Do humans “need” a father? it may be beneficial if it’s a good father, but we can see many who get along fine who have not had a father, so “need” is the wrong term.
And what if that father is never around, left before you were born, and only left a letter to you explaining (not always in the easiest or most direct of terms) how he expects you to behave and promises that he’ll take care of you and promises to severely punish you for disobedience or for leaving him?
is that a good father? is that a father we need? isn’t it laughable that such a father could even begin to threaten the child for “leaving him” (since the father clearly left the child) not to mention how absurd it is to think that such a father actually does anything to really take care of the child?
I’m having a hard time understanding how we’re ingrained to “need” such a father, or why we’d even call such a father good?
Finding Truth 
Ok. I’m gonna try to get to all of this. Sorry if I miss something.
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William – “Why do many bible believers treat the bible as if it is the ONLY “known” and use it to validate science, archaeology and history, instead of the other way around?”
Because they are mistaken. As we all are to one extent or another.
“Why put so much faith in men you have never met, who make claims about things you have never seen or witnessed?”
I’m not putting my faith in men. I’m putting my faith in God. The description of human nature found throughout scripture is consistent with what I know is true about myself and others, and Jesus is the only sure-fire hope offered by any worldview. No other gives any way to know you’re acceptable to God. Jesus tells us we all are, and that he has paid the price he paid to show us that.
“this is kind of what I mean… Didn’t you say this just yesterday?”
Maybe. I can’t claim I’m always consistent. Just doing my best. I stand by what I wrote just a while ago.
“And if Jesus paid my taxes, why is God still trying to collect from me?”
He’s not.
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Josh – “I’m not putting my faith in men. I’m putting my faith in God. The description of human nature found throughout scripture is consistent with what I know is true about myself and others, and Jesus is the only sure-fire hope offered by any worldview. No other gives any way to know you’re acceptable to God. Jesus tells us we all are, and that he has paid the price he paid to show us that.”
but you’r getting that knowledge about god from a book that men wrote. men copied it and translated it. men handed it to you. even The bible itself literally states that god’s fingerprints are not on it. These men claim to be speaking for god. To believe those men’s claims is faith, first and foremost, in those men’s claims – not in god.
you may have faith that there is a god, but it’s all based on the claims of man, or faith in the claims of man, rather.
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Nate – “So Josh, you don’t believe in Hell?”
Probably not in the sense that you are thinking. I don’t know if you’ve read CS Lewis’ The Great Divorce, but I’d recommend it.
“God can be as mysterious as he wants, because it doesn’t matter if we don’t figure it out. But if that’s the case, I’m not sure why we’re debating the Bible so much.”
I don’t think God is “being mysterious”, I just think there are things about him that we just can’t understand. We’re debating the Bible because, even though I hold to the things I’m saying about grace, I think there are ways in which you’re misreading the Bible.
“Josh seems to dislike my take on the Bible, but I have trouble seeing how he can agree with much of it if he doesn’t believe there’s any kind of punishment in the afterlife?”
Because there’s benefits to understanding the way that these things are true ALREADY, and not just how they will be true in the future. There is joy in standing on the foundation now, as I experience it. I’m trying to share that. You can stand on the foundation or not.
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Too, if what the Bible says about human nature is consistent with what you know through your own experiences, isn’t it at least possible that the people who wrote the Bible looked no further than their own experiences to write that? Why would they need divine inspiration for something we already know about ourselves?
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“Why would they need divine inspiration for something we already know about ourselves?”
I didn’t always know it about myself, and I still don’t know all of it. And, I know plenty of people who don’t know it.
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Ah, but there’s joy in my worldview as well. you’re trying to correct a problem that doesn’t exist — at least, it doesn’t exist for me.
And if we can’t understand some of the things God’s relating to us, then he could have made us in a way that we would understand.
It seems completely obvious to me that the fact we don’t understand God, the Bible is filled with problems, God doesn’t interact with us personally, etc, simply shows that he’s myth. I find that to be, by far, the simplest explanation of what we see.
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“you may have faith that there is a god, but it’s all based on the claims of man, or faith in the claims of man, rather.”
It’s not all based on claims of men. I tried to point that out. Looks like I failed.
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Then how do you know it’s true? Does this not seem a bit circular to you?
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so your faith has nothing to do with the bible, but with your own personal experiences then?
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Josh,
You could have conceived of a God Figure in your mind like others before you, but you didn’t conceive a Jesus Figure. You had to read about him from a book written by men.
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“Ah, but there’s joy in my worldview as well. you’re trying to correct a problem that doesn’t exist — at least, it doesn’t exist for me.”
I’m not trying to correct a problem. I’m responding to your posts, which invite debate and discussion.
“And if we can’t understand some of the things God’s relating to us, then he could have made us in a way that we would understand.”
Probably. But, again, you’re placing requirements on God.
“It seems completely obvious to me that the fact we don’t understand God, the Bible is filled with problems, God doesn’t interact with us personally, etc, simply shows that he’s myth. I find that to be, by far, the simplest explanation of what we see.”
Fair enough. I agree we can’t completely understand God. I disagree with you on each other point. I agree that it is rather simple to come to that conclusion. I’m not sure that simple is the point, though. Relationships aren’t simple.
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It’s getting circular, yes Nate 🙂
I’m having trouble keeping up.
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Relationships?!
I’ve never seen God, and he’s never spoken to me. How is that a relationship? You and I — who only know one another from these discussions — have a closer relationship than I (and I would wager you as well) have with God.
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According to you, Nate and William, I make about as much sense as scripture (probably less since anything I write is uninspired). I’ll take that and go home for now. I’m losing the ability to keep going here 🙂
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I think Nate is referring to Occam’s Razor, josh. I doubt you’re arguing that the most complex solution is often the correct one…
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Thanks for talking with us, Josh. I know it’s not easy to have these conversations — especially when there’s no one else in the discussion that sees it your way. I’ve felt that way at Humblesmith’s blog before.
Anyway, I hope you’ll come back when you can, whether it’s on this thread or another.
Thanks
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Of course, Nate. I was just having trouble keeping up while at work (don’t tell anyone), and was thinking if I just left it for several hours until tonight there would be 30 more posts to respond to 🙂
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Josh, I also appreciate your willingness to participate in these discussions.
I cant speak for you, but this has reminded me of my own past in the faith. As I said before, I used to try a figure the problems of the bible out. To me, the bible simply was “perfect” or “all correct” and the “inspired word of god.” there was no question on that for me and as a consequence I never debated that with myself. It was right, so it all must make sense or all must work out.
I eventually realized, though after years, that my attempts to “solve” or “rationalize” the issues in the bible, only brought on more issues to fix. More holes to plug or more divides to bridge over. I realized that the issues still existed whether I tried to patch them up or not. Underneath whatever I created to rectify the problems were still the problems themselves.
When I finally sat back and for the first time and questioned the source of the bible, questioned the author’s claims and it finally all started to make sense. I found it so interesting that after saying it my entire life as a christian, i actually now felt like I had once been blind, but now see.
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William – “so your faith has nothing to do with the bible, but with your own personal experiences then?”
Just found this comment. Sorry I missed it. The Bible gives “flesh and bones”, if you will, to what I believe. This world needs redemption. I hope for the redemption of all the things inside me that I wish were not there. Jesus is the only option that tells me these things are paid for, redeemed, and their reparation will be revealed in time. My experience does not fuel my faith at all. My experience tells me I’m doomed. My hope grasps for something like Jesus. The Bible gives life to what I would hope for if there were no Bible. When I sit with The Bible and I sit with Jesus he is real. Fantasy? Maybe. But, it offers hope where otherwise there would be none.
“If your beginning is meaningless, and your end is meaningless, then your middle must be meaningless as well.” – Tim Keller
So, I guess I basically hope that quote is not a representation of reality.
Why not other religions? I admit I can’t have understood everything about other religions. However, I find none that offer the hope Christianity does. All others tell us to work to get better and earn “god’s” favor. That sounds flimsy at best.
To answer your question about what my faith “has to do with”, in one word: Hope.
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I appreciate that last comment of yours, William. I don’t see the Bible the same way you, and I think Nate, see it. You both seem to have trouble with the idea that the Bible, even though it communicates truth about God, can be communicated to us through fallible human beings, and, therefore, be subject to all the mistakes we make. I simply don’t hold the same requirement.
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Josh: ” All others tell us to work to get better and earn “god’s” favor. That sounds flimsy at best.”
In our everyday lives aren’t we suppose to work to get better ???? And isn’t it suppose to help us find favor with others? That doesn’t sound flimsy to me but a real truth.
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kcchief1: How would you know, if a merit system is how god operates, that you had done enough to earn his favor?
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I guess that’s fair. I do have trouble accepting a fallible end product as the divine word of a perfect being.
There seems to be too many problems with that. and one is, if the bible has flaws in it, then maybe one of them is that God is in fact perfect and another is that maybe they got Jesus wrong as well.
And I still cant seem to shake the notion that since man wrote the bible, trusting anything they say is actually faith in them more than it is faith in god.
Like, if Luke Skywalker said he’d save you. If you hoped that were the case and trusted what he said then you’d in fact have faith that he’d save you. But if Jim Cary told you that Luke Skywalker would save you and you trusted that and hoped that were the case, you’re trust and faith are really in what Jim Cary (Jim Cary of all people) has told you _ Not Luke.
Especially if Luke didnt save you. Are you going to then confront Luke and say, “I trusted you, Skywalker.” he’d be like, “I never told you I’d do anything. go talk to Jim Cary, i’m going to get some power converters…”
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Matt 7 and other places seem to indicate the bible god expects something of us.
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