In my last post, discussion turned to the question of whether or not we need God. One of my regular contributors, William, posted the following comment, and I felt it deserved its own post:
I am just having problems understanding whether humans “need” a god.
Do humans “need” a father? it may be beneficial if it’s a good father, but we can see many who get along fine who have not had a father, so “need” is the wrong term.
And what if that father is never around, left before you were born, and only left a letter to you explaining (not always in the easiest or most direct of terms) how he expects you to behave and promises that he’ll take care of you and promises to severely punish you for disobedience or for leaving him?
is that a good father? is that a father we need? isn’t it laughable that such a father could even begin to threaten the child for “leaving him” (since the father clearly left the child) not to mention how absurd it is to think that such a father actually does anything to really take care of the child?
I’m having a hard time understanding how we’re ingrained to “need” such a father, or why we’d even call such a father good?
Finding Truth 
“At least, it needs to in order to gain wide appeal. ”
This appears to be a demonstrably false statement.
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Josh, “Like unkleE pointed out, there are countless stories that indicate God has worked to reveal the truth of Jesus in the lives of people who have not heard the direct story about Jesus.”
5 billion stories ??? And what about the countless billions who have died over the past 2 thousand years ?
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No, it’s not demonstrably false, because the majority of the world population has always been something other than Christian.
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“it’s not demonstrably false, because the majority of the world population has always been something other than Christian.”
I didn’t know you meant “majority of the world population”. I misread what you meant by wide appeal.
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“5 billion stories ??? And what about the countless billions who have died over the past 2 thousand years ?”
Possibly. If he’s done it for one, and more than one person has told this story, then you can’t disallow the possibility he’s done it for that many.
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kcchief1 – don’t you want the merit system, anyway? What does it matter to you if God communicates to people in ways you don’t know about?
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“But if he is communicating something to us (the Bible), and he wants us to believe it (as countless scriptures attest), then it needs to be a bit more coherent than it is.”
This is the basic assumption you’re arguing from, Nate. I don’t agree with it. Maybe we ought to just let it rest there? I don’t know. I can keep going if you want, but I think most of what we’re talking about boils down to our disagreement here.
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Hi Nate – I’ve only had time on my break at work to read through a small handful of the latest comments here, so I’m not sure you have corrected this yet, but the comment that started with “I believe that it is fair enough to say that if we are going to be held accountable for not believing in a particular worldview then the truth of that worldview should be obvious to us” was actually my comment and not Unklee’s… I was wondering last night if that was why you wrote to Unklee that you love it when you guys agree! 🙂 I’m hoping to have time tonight to read through the next 100 comments and possibly be able to throw in a short comment of my own. 🙂
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Josh – ““5 billion stories ??? And what about the countless billions who have died over the past 2 thousand years ?”
Possibly. If he’s done it for one, and more than one person has told this story, then you can’t disallow the possibility he’s done it for that many.”
huh? is this another demonstrably tangible thing?
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Josh – ““But if he is communicating something to us (the Bible), and he wants us to believe it (as countless scriptures attest), then it needs to be a bit more coherent than it is.”
This is the basic assumption you’re arguing from, Nate. I don’t agree with it. Maybe we ought to just let it rest there? I don’t know. I can keep going if you want, but I think most of what we’re talking about boils down to our disagreement here.”
What is it that you dont agree with or that you think the assumption is? that god is communicating something he wants us to believe, or that it should be coherent to do so?
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“huh? is this another demonstrably tangible thing?”
William – Alright, I have to say I’m getting a little annoyed with your “tangible” stuff. I apologize for using an imprecise word with you. I will do my best not to do that in the future.
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“5 billion stories ??? And what about the countless billions who have died over the past 2 thousand years ?”
Possibly. If he’s done it for one, and more than one person has told this story, then you can’t disallow the possibility he’s done it for that many.
Josh: Here is where you have set aside All Logic .
Josh
May 30, 2013 at 12:18 pm
kcchief1 – don’t you want the merit system, anyway? What does it matter to you if God communicates to people in ways you don’t know about?
Because if God for example communicated a simple Merit System to the World, He might have eliminated the millions of people killed as a result of Holy Wars. We wouldn’t be having these discussions either. We would be busy helping our fellow man instead of trying to convince him there is only one way to God.
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no, there I go again, but you keep not making sense and it’s getting hard for me to keep up. Without any sarcasm this time, it seems like you’re making stuff up to suit whatever point you’re trying to make at the time – changing the rules when it helps you.
So while I should apologize for being antagonistic, I am also annoyed at your disregard for simple reason and fair play.
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Now ya’ll are makin’ me laugh. 😉 Just remember that the internet (typed communication without the benefit of any tone of voice or facial expression) is THE worst communication medium ever invented when it comes to the possibility of misunderstanding. Try to give each other the benefit of the doubt (and a little sarcasm, of course). 🙂
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“I am also annoyed at your disregard for simple reason and fair play.”
Fair enough.
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William, staunch evangelicals have to change the rules as they go … it’s the only way they can make sense of a loving God punishing a human being just for being human. 😉 (A little tongue-in-cheek, there, Josh, don’t take offense.)
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JudahFirst, you’re correct, and I am embarrassed to say I used to be among them.
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I gotta echo JudahFirst’s comment, guys.
It speaks highly of Josh that he’d even discuss this junk with us. William, I know you’re a good guy too. So I know that these rising temperatures are due more to misunderstanding, and the frustration that comes with trying to relay ideas like these that are infinitely complex. If necessary, just take a break for a bit. No need for things to escalate.
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Hey, Josh, have you ever heard Rob Bell’s talk, “The God’s Aren’t Angry”? Hopefully you’re not one of those who has written him off just because John Piper did… Surely not. 🙂 Anyway, it’s a GREAT video!! And I can say that after 30+ years of listening to preachers expound the Bible, I have never found anyone who clearly explains the Hebrew culture like Rob.
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William, me too. 😥
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Howie, thanks for setting me straight! I don’t know how I got confused by that last night. And once again, you and I completely agree 🙂
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Yeah, sorry Nate and Josh. I’ll back off a bit. I’m not gonna do what every thinks I’m gonna do and FLIP out….
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I wonder if the “rules” being broken aren’t ones that were set in place by humans in the first place? God, in his very nature, defies our reasoning. His being cannot be logically deduced or concluded. If you’ve come to believe in a God who is the beginning and the end, is three distinct individuals within one entity, was fully God and fully Man in one human, was dead and resurrected, etc, etc, etc, then you already believe in something that is completely unreasonable. I think the error we make is that we can reason to him in the first place. I said this earlier, and quoted Paul. I know Nate rebutted that verse, but again, I think it’s stated several times throughout scripture that our wisdom and ability to reason cannot “find” God.
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I agree it’s frustrating on both ends – I think we are really coming at this from two completely different understandings, and expecting to communicate the same language. As I just mentioned, I am already beginning from a God who defies our understanding. So, I’m not as bothered by getting tripped up, or mistaking, or re-evaluating, or trying to state something a little differently. Maybe that’s insanity. Who knows.
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To dovetail on that last comment I made. I can’t really answer Nate’s question about why the Bible isn’t clear to everyone. I wish it was. But, I know it’s not. A lot of that I attribute to our human inability to clearly relate things over time and culture. Here’s another place where I trust – I think there are a lot of people who do not represent the love that Jesus came to show. And, if God can’t see past our failures to communicate in order to forgive and love, then he is not the God I believe in.
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