@ Nan
”First, I feel a bit offended to be lumped in with Ark as I feel I’ve been much more respectful in my postings”
Dear Nan,
I too would be offended and I’m sorry they are nailing you alongside me. But you know these religious types, they get so intense when their beliefs are questioned and always want to crucify someone, right?
Peace.
William, In modern society, Christians have been persecuted in non-christian nations such as USSR, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and North Korea (check the link below). Also, keep in mind recent incidents, such as the outrage created by some non-Christians when the CEO of Chick Fil A made public his beliefs about homosexual marriage, and some Atheists insisting that the Ten Commandments be removed from court houses. It baffles me how many people get upset with Christians for freely expressing their faith, as if their claims were some threat to society. If people don’t agree, fine, but don’t need to make a big issue about it either. I never wrote anything about miracles.
Nate, thanks for the Wikipedia link. This same link actually mentions that the Christians were persecuted for more than 3 centuries and did not completely stop after the initiation of the Roman Catholic Church. A similar link is found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians.
I think we all agree that Christians have been persecuted in history. But William has a good point that there have been many religious groups that have been persecuted, but that doesn’t really prove that there is some divine force behind that group that helped it survive. I also agree with Nate that many of the stories of rampant persecutions in the first century are very likely exaggerations.
I was a little surprised by you using those 2 recent events as examples of persecution. First, there were many liberal religious people including Christians who spoke out against the Chick FilA statement. A lot of these people had no desire to persecute Christians or squash the ability of someone to freely speak about their beliefs – they simply wanted to stand together with gay couples and support them in their efforts to not be alienated and to be accepted as humans who are not harming others but simply have adult consensual loving relationships. I also stand with and support them. And I have no desire to squash your ability to freely express your faith and I certainly have no desire to persecute anyone. But it is a big deal to me that these humans be treated equally by our government, and I do feel it is important to “make a big issue” of that.
And the issue of the Ten Commandments being removed from court houses also does not have to do with wanting to persecute Christians or restrict their freedom of speech. It is about separation of Church and State. While 6 of the commandments are common to the vast majority of religions, 4 of them certainly are not, so this issue even goes beyond just atheism. I also believe that separating religion from government is very wise, and there are a lot of middle eastern countries that I believe would be better off if they learned this. I would stand in support of you if someone was trying to restrict you from having the Ten Commandments up on your synagogue, church or home, but is it really necessary for it to be in government buildings which are shared by people of many different beliefs? Anyway, that’s really a separate discussion, but the main point is that this is not really about persecution.
Noel, in addition to Howie’s comment, let me say that indeed, some Christians in some “non-christian countries” experience some persecution… just as it can be said that some non-Christians in some “christian countries” also experience a similar level of “persecution.”
and like Howie said, if we’re going to use that as some form of divine evidence, then it should work both ways. I’m just saying that we shouldn’t pick and choose when or how we apply circumstantial evidence (if it can even be called that).
Howie, thanks for joining the conversation. It is interesting how people can easily be misjudged. Initially I was not going to respond, but I feel I need to clarify. I did not write that it was a divine intervention which contributed to Christianity’s survival, although I don’t doubt it. I am also not implying that other religions are not as important, for I live a more inclusive lifestyle (if you read my blog, you would get a better sense of my current view about spirituality). Also, I was answering William’s question about recent events that show how Christians are attacked and criticized. I understand how these examples do not compare to the brutal persecutions of other times and countries. However, they are clear evidence of how Christians are being marginalized simply because they assert their beliefs in the midst of an evolving society that is slowly shifting away from traditional Christianity. Believers also have the right to freely express their values, just like anyone else. Again, I am not trying to criticize other groups that do not agree with most Christians. I suggest not to misjudge others, like Christians are often described to do. Peace.
Noel, thanks for the clarification. And, only speaking for myself, I just want it to be clear that christians are not unique in that they are persecuted and that they at times persecute others.
The human condition seems to indeed be universal to humans. The bible hasn’t stopped that any more that the Tipitaka.
Finding Truth 
@ Nan
”First, I feel a bit offended to be lumped in with Ark as I feel I’ve been much more respectful in my postings”
Dear Nan,
I too would be offended and I’m sorry they are nailing you alongside me. But you know these religious types, they get so intense when their beliefs are questioned and always want to crucify someone, right?
Peace.
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Thanks Ark 🙂
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William, In modern society, Christians have been persecuted in non-christian nations such as USSR, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and North Korea (check the link below). Also, keep in mind recent incidents, such as the outrage created by some non-Christians when the CEO of Chick Fil A made public his beliefs about homosexual marriage, and some Atheists insisting that the Ten Commandments be removed from court houses. It baffles me how many people get upset with Christians for freely expressing their faith, as if their claims were some threat to society. If people don’t agree, fine, but don’t need to make a big issue about it either. I never wrote anything about miracles.
Nate, thanks for the Wikipedia link. This same link actually mentions that the Christians were persecuted for more than 3 centuries and did not completely stop after the initiation of the Roman Catholic Church. A similar link is found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians.
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Hi Noel,
I think we all agree that Christians have been persecuted in history. But William has a good point that there have been many religious groups that have been persecuted, but that doesn’t really prove that there is some divine force behind that group that helped it survive. I also agree with Nate that many of the stories of rampant persecutions in the first century are very likely exaggerations.
I was a little surprised by you using those 2 recent events as examples of persecution. First, there were many liberal religious people including Christians who spoke out against the Chick FilA statement. A lot of these people had no desire to persecute Christians or squash the ability of someone to freely speak about their beliefs – they simply wanted to stand together with gay couples and support them in their efforts to not be alienated and to be accepted as humans who are not harming others but simply have adult consensual loving relationships. I also stand with and support them. And I have no desire to squash your ability to freely express your faith and I certainly have no desire to persecute anyone. But it is a big deal to me that these humans be treated equally by our government, and I do feel it is important to “make a big issue” of that.
And the issue of the Ten Commandments being removed from court houses also does not have to do with wanting to persecute Christians or restrict their freedom of speech. It is about separation of Church and State. While 6 of the commandments are common to the vast majority of religions, 4 of them certainly are not, so this issue even goes beyond just atheism. I also believe that separating religion from government is very wise, and there are a lot of middle eastern countries that I believe would be better off if they learned this. I would stand in support of you if someone was trying to restrict you from having the Ten Commandments up on your synagogue, church or home, but is it really necessary for it to be in government buildings which are shared by people of many different beliefs? Anyway, that’s really a separate discussion, but the main point is that this is not really about persecution.
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Howie, well said.
Noel, in addition to Howie’s comment, let me say that indeed, some Christians in some “non-christian countries” experience some persecution… just as it can be said that some non-Christians in some “christian countries” also experience a similar level of “persecution.”
and like Howie said, if we’re going to use that as some form of divine evidence, then it should work both ways. I’m just saying that we shouldn’t pick and choose when or how we apply circumstantial evidence (if it can even be called that).
LikeLike
Howie, thanks for joining the conversation. It is interesting how people can easily be misjudged. Initially I was not going to respond, but I feel I need to clarify. I did not write that it was a divine intervention which contributed to Christianity’s survival, although I don’t doubt it. I am also not implying that other religions are not as important, for I live a more inclusive lifestyle (if you read my blog, you would get a better sense of my current view about spirituality). Also, I was answering William’s question about recent events that show how Christians are attacked and criticized. I understand how these examples do not compare to the brutal persecutions of other times and countries. However, they are clear evidence of how Christians are being marginalized simply because they assert their beliefs in the midst of an evolving society that is slowly shifting away from traditional Christianity. Believers also have the right to freely express their values, just like anyone else. Again, I am not trying to criticize other groups that do not agree with most Christians. I suggest not to misjudge others, like Christians are often described to do. Peace.
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Noel, thanks for the clarification. And, only speaking for myself, I just want it to be clear that christians are not unique in that they are persecuted and that they at times persecute others.
The human condition seems to indeed be universal to humans. The bible hasn’t stopped that any more that the Tipitaka.
Thanks, and peace be unto you as well.
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