Not long ago, fellow blogger John Zande wrote an excellent post titled “Jesus Christ: Just Not Worth a Sheet of Paper.” It’s actually not as derogatory as the title suggests. Some apologists have suggested that the reason we have no contemporary accounts of Jesus’ life is that paper was so expensive. That’s the argument John deals with in his post.
His post is great — you should read it. But what I actually want to write about is one of the comments that someone left on it. Diana of NarrowWayApologetics.com left a lengthy comment that I decided to include here in its entirety. I identified with it a bit. It reminded me of some of the thoughts I used to have as a Christian:
One of the main reasons people believed Paul was because he explained the reason for Jesus coming into the world. His teachings were amazing. They explained how Jesus “fulfilled the law and the prophets.” I wrote this comment in response to John Zande’s comment on my blog last night. Forgive me for posting it here. Just ignore if you don’t want to read it.
“This passage about Jesus fulfilling the law and the prophets (Matthew 5:17-20) is one of the main reasons I believe the Gospel message. The incredible ways that Jesus did this are beyond human ability to create. I don’t think any mystery writer could have weaved together the incredible ways Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets.
I know this post is long, so if you want to skip the parts between the dotted lines, I understand. I just wrote it for anyone who might be interested.
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First of all, there are many ways Jesus fulfilled the law. In fact, believers are constantly astounded by how intricately Jesus fulfilled the law.One way he fulfilled the law was by fulfilling the Sabbath. The Sabbath was the seventh day of rest that the Jews were commanded to obey. Jesus fulfilled the law of the Sabbath by becoming our rest for us. (Hebrews 4:9-11) He said his burden was light and his yoke was easy. Christians no longer practice the Sabbath. They worship on Sunday, rather than Saturday. They enter into his rest and no longer do religious works for salvation. (They are saved by grace through faith.)
Jesus fulfilled the law when he became the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. His death on the cross was similar to the Exodus story, which described the lamb, whose blood would be placed on the doorposts of the home, causing the death angel to pass over that home. (Hebrews 9)
Jesus fulfilled the law when he became the unleavened bread of the Exodus story. Leaven is a symbol of sin and false teaching (1 Cor. 5:6-8, Matt. 16:12). Jesus fulfilled this feast by being sinless and being the TRUTH.
Another way that Jesus fulfilled the law was by becoming a tithe (firstfruits) for us. (Leviticus 23:10) He fulfilled the tithe by becoming the firstfruits from the dead when he was resurrected. (1 Cor. 15:20) Christians are no longer bound by a tithe, instead we are told to be cheerful givers. We are also promised that there will be a resurrection for us because of what Christ did for us.
Jesus fulfilled the law when he became a light to the Gentiles. In the law of Moses, the people were commanded to leave behind the gleanings (or leftovers) of the harvest for the poor and aliens. (Lev. 23:22) This would be fulfilled at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came down and the gospel was preached in all languages, offering salvation to all, not just the Jews. (Acts 10:34-35)
These fulfillments of the law were actually the first 4 feasts that would be celebrated every year by the Jews. They would be celebrated according to the seasons. The feasts celebrated during the early rains were the fulfilled at the time of the early church. Three more feasts are waiting to be fulfilled at the end of the age (or at the time of the latter rains). These three feasts are the feast of trumpets (representing the return of Jesus), the feast day of atonement (representing the salvation of the Jews), and the feast of tabernacles (representing the time when we will all be with the Lord).
There are so many other ways in which Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets. And none of it has to do with Jesus expecting or commanding Christians to obey the law to perfection. It has to do with how it’s impossible for anyone to keep the law. That is why Jesus came. How could any human conceive of a way to have even a made-up, fictional character fulfill all these things? And I’ve barely scratched the surface of the way Jesus accomplished these things.
The greatest concern I feel burdened about is how to convey the magnificence of what I’m trying to explain. He was the manna from heaven. He was the living water. He was the high priest in the order of Melchizedek. He is the “I AM.” He is the Word become flesh. He became a slave for us. (Philippians 2:7) He became a curse for us. He became sin for us, so we could become righteous before God. He offers us mercy because his blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat. All of this is explained in the scriptures.
I haven’t even begun to explain the way Jesus fulfilled the prophets.
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The story of Jewish history and the giving of the law is actually a way to PROVE the reality of God’s plan for the salvation of humanity through Jesus Christ. One random fact doesn’t prove anything, but the cumulative effect of ALL the fulfillments makes the Bible a miraculous book. This is why some of the brightest and best minds in the history of the world have loved and received Jesus. It isn’t a decision based on emotion alone, but a decision based on knowledge. And the more I learn, the more I am in awe of what God did and how he accomplished it.”
To say that the story of Jesus was just created by pasting together myths, fictional narratives, sayings, and borrowed phrases (as Ken Humphreys does) is a ridiculous claim because only a Christ could have conceived of a Christ. Who could have created the amazing Jesus portrayed in the Gospels and explained further by Paul?
Of course, I now see that there are several problems with this line of thinking. In 2015, Star Wars Episode 7 is supposed to hit theaters. Will it shock anyone if the movie syncs up perfectly with the previous 6? The thing is, when there is already an established back story, it’s not impossible to construct a narrative that builds upon it. The fact that we as readers see the parallels between the stories of Jesus and events in the Old Testament is not an accident. The authors intended for us to see those parallels, and there’s no reason why they couldn’t have invented them — even if Jesus was a real person.
Matthew is one of the best books to look to for evidence of this. Matthew is the only book that tells of Jesus’ family fleeing to Egypt to escape Herod’s infanticide. Both events, fleeing to Egypt and the infanticide, seem to be inspired by Matthew’s reading of the Old Testament. Hosea 11:1 says, “out of Egypt, I called my son.” Matthew says that this prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus’ family returned after fleeing to Egypt. But when you read the entire chapter of Hosea 11, it’s very evident that the passage has nothing to do with the Messiah, but is simply talking about Israel’s period of captivity in Egypt.
Matthew also claims that Herod’s slaughter of infants in Bethlehem was to fulfill this prophecy:
A voice is heard in Ramah,
lamentation and bitter weeping.
Rachel is weeping for her children;
she refuses to be comforted for her children,
because they are no more.
But once again, when we read all of Jeremiah 31, this was no prophecy at all. The chapter is talking about Israel’s captivity in Assyria. Nothing else.
The author of Matthew took these passages and used them to add parallels to the story about Jesus’ birth. It didn’t require magic or divine inspiration to do that — it only took knowledge of these passages. Just like the people working on Star Wars 7 don’t need divine intervention to let them know about Darth Vader.
Diana ends her comment by asking who could have created such a compelling story. Who could have created Christ? But why couldn’t we ask this about anyone? Who could have created Darth Vader? He’s quite a compelling character himself. Who could have created someone as magnificent as Santa Claus? Or Paul Bunyan? Or Achilles? Or King Arthur? Just asking this question doesn’t really mean anything. If Jesus never existed, then someone did just create his story. Or if he was a real person, but not divine, then his story was embellished. We have to draw our conclusions about Jesus based on the evidence, including the fact that Matthew seemed to feel the need to create “prophecies” to give Jesus credibility.
Finding Truth 
Here’s a link to one small article on transitional fossils. It points out other sources on the subject that offer more evidence that this article does, but it’s still fairly interesting. http://www.livescience.com/3306-fossils-reveal-truth-darwin-theory.html
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Thanks, William, I just bookmarked the piece, as I know I’ll find MANY uses for it over time. While the piece is far too long to repost here, and knowing there’s a strong likelihood that the lovely Laurie will not visit the site, as cognitive dissonance can be quite painful I’m told, and inclined to make one’s head occasionally explode, I’ll paste in just a tiny bit, for her benefit, just so she can never say I haven’t done anything for her.
Sorry, Laurie – no crocoducks yet, but we’re still looking —
And since I’m sure Laurie wouldn’t mind if I indulged in a bit of self-promotion (and likely would admit to being surprised if I didn’t), I’ll add this:
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@Arch — Touche! (Don’t know how to add the accent mark, but I’m sure you get the idea.)
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Simple, Nan – go here – http://spanish.typeit.org/ – select your language, and voilá! – “touché”
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Oh, and Laurie, I know you homeschool your girls, and I really DO credit you with having the highest of motives for doing so, but there’s no doubt you’ve filled their poor little heads with biblical myths, do them – not me – a favor, so that when they get older, they don’t stick out like a sucked thumb on a dirty baby (and so they don’t have to hide from the world in the woods on a goat ranch), buy them a copy of Occidental College geologist Donald Prothero’s book, “Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters” (Columbia University Press, 2007), and let them decide for themselves what they want to believe, with all of the facts available to them.
I’d buy it for them myself (I love kids, and only wish the best for them!) if I knew where to send it and had your assurance you’d let them read it without any vitriolic disclaimers.
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Howie,
“I’ve been looking up the meaning of those names and several of them don’t actually seem to match what you’ve written (especially Kenan, Mahalalel, Enoch, and Methusaleh). I’m getting this:”
I am guessing this was just meant for a laugh, because it would appear that you are an intelligent man. But for those that may not know, ancient Hebrew names are not translated, but transliterated. Unfortunately, the only way to get an accurate picture of the meaning, is to study root word, and have some understanding of Hebrew.
example…
The name seth is two hebrew letters שׁ shin, and ת tav. They read right to left, so it would look like this שֵׁת. Taking a closer look at each letter the shin means sharp, press, eat , and two. The tav means mark, sign, signal, or monument. The hebrew name as written above would be pronounced sheyt with the vowel points under the shin. Sheyt is the root word meaning “to set something in place” but could be more accurately translated as “buttocks” The foundation or place where you sit. Seth is not one of the disputed names because Eve clearly states that YHWY has appointed her another offspring. Anyway, my point is that unless you are planning to study hebrew, you are not likely to understand what a name really means, and a study bible, lexicon, or concordance (since these are the common tools that people have) is not going to be much help.
“How about the mathematical miracles in the Quran? : http://www.eholyquran.com/Quran/LinksPrime/MathematicalMiraclesOfQuran.htm
As stated on that website: “Do you think these mathematical relations are accidental? If you think so, it is very unfair, and perhaps you intend to unfairly deny the great truth that Quran is the word of God.””
I believe in YHWH, and I believe in Lucifer. So I believe that Lucifer makes as many counterfeits to the real as he can. I also believe that the scriptures are spiritual, and require spiritual discernment to be properly understood.
I enjoy conversing with you all, but don’t think you ever really get my point. Like the quote from Stephen Jay Gould. This was not my quote, but a quote from a fellow evolutionist. So you can send him those links, but he is a paleontologist, and I am sure he is aware of the evidence.
Nate,
“But I was talking more about scholars and scientists. You know, people whose focus is on something else, like archaeology, biology, astronomy, etc. My focus, admittedly, is religion. But for an anthropologist who’s never really given tons of consideration to religion, there wouldn’t be much incentive to twist their findings to disprove something they already dismiss.”
Scientist are always bombarded by religion, and i suppose rightly so, they are usually irritated with the concept. So it makes sense they may not like to support information that may look as though it is leaning that way. And as for archaeologists, Israel Finklestien sure wastes a lot of time with it. Have you read any of his books? Books on how the bible is fiction, and how King David and Solomon had only small tribes. I bet he is kicking himself for that one. That’s the thing with archaeology, there are always things being unearthed. Like it or not, these fields are very connected with each other, and very aware of the opposition.
I thought I was going to have time to post links for you arch, but I have been really swamped. I can’t keep this computer, and posting on here has been a huge distraction for me. I enjoyed everyone though, and will pop back in as time permits. I keep thinking I just mighty start a blog of my own in the winter. Not that it will interest any of you I am sure!
Shalom!
Laurie
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wow! i started posting my comment, and have added to it here and there throughout my day. Not ignoring your self promotion arch, just didn’t see it till now. leaving for town, don’t talk about me behind my back!;)
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Laurie, I think the disconnect between most religious and most non-religious has to do with how we view the world. For me, when i was a believer, i believed the story that science, history, archaeology only supported the bible. I believed the story that the bible never contradicted itself. And when i read the bible, it was only to glean the moral and ethical harvest…
Then, once I realized that it was just untrue that science supported the bible, but that much of if it disagreed with it, and once I began to see the actual contradictions and errors in the bible I stopped believing in it. I just didnt see any real supporting evidence. It was all hope. It was all faith in the claims on human writers – not god, since he had told me nothing himself.
And many (or “some” if you prefer) scientists/archaeologists will automatically discount supernatural explanations for things or events. Some might say that that shows a bias against religion… and perhaps it does, but surely you can understand why. Much of the things we’ve learned, whether it be gravity, human growth, outer space, etc were one time dismissed as “god did it/does it/whatever it” – and then people, through research and testing discovered physical laws which led them to make accurate predictions…
Once people began to see that they can understand the world without god and have it work, it became a simple and logical step to part with religion, especially when seeing the errors in the bible (and other religious texts), the similarities between opposing faiths, and the scientific fallacies within the bible (like when jesus said that a seed must die before it would grow).
And then we get into what faith is better and why? is the whole bible inspired by god or part of it, which parts, etc? It becomes too cumbersome if one thinks about it too long. It begins to look like a game children created and then added extra rules as they played (at least it does to me).
These people view the world with their eyes open, looking for answers they can see, measure and weigh. And Christians walk by faith, not by sight. But I must say, once I opened my eyes I saw much more clearly.
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Actually, that’s not true, I would LOVE to come over there and harass you!
pax vobiscum,
arch
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NEVER! Unless you’re not here —
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Are we talking horse and buggy here, or what? I’ll admit to curiosity, do you churn your own butter? Seriously, there are SO many lost arts, that if we lost our electricity, as in the TV series, “Revolution,” we wouldn’t know what to do. I’m still good with a bow and arrow, so I wouldn’t starve, but as for churning butter or baking bread, I’d be lost.
It’s hard to find a woman today that can even cook, much less quilt, churn butter, and hitch up the mule and plow the south 40.
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Yeah, well, the thing of it is, is that Laurie, bless her little cherry-pickin’ heart, cherry-picks.
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Hey Laurie,
Yeah, that was part joke. I was trying to demonstrate how we could read different hidden messages out of the same thing, and then I thought I’d have some fun with it. Didn’t mean it in a bad way and looks like you didn’t take it that way (I hope).
From the first looks of it 4 of those names didn’t easily translate into what was needed for the proof. Even reading the explanation online from people who supported it made it look like there was some forcing or maneuvering to get the hidden message out of it. These kinds of things are very similar to Michael Drosnin’s Bible Code book. It has been shown that using the same techniques the same kinds of hidden messages can be found in War and Peace.
My main point is just to explain why it isn’t convincing to me. If that doesn’t work for you that’s cool.
As far as Lucifer making counterfeits, if we believe there are counterfeits made from bad spirits then I’m afraid we’re stuck with the fact that whatever we choose as the correct scriptures could just as likely be counterfeits as the next guy’s scripture choice. You may think that you’ve got the spiritual discernment to make the correct choice but clearly people of other religions believe that they are the ones that have that spiritual discernment and they believe that you are the one following the counterfeit.
If you ever start a blog I’d be interested in reading. If you want you can contact me from the contact page of my blog (which I think you can get to by clicking my name) once you get it running. I’ll try to be nice if I comment on it. 🙂
Enjoy your trip. Arch now has me interested too about whether it’s by horse and buggy. 🙂 It’s not out of the realm of possibility since the Amish certainly do it, and there is some respect I think they deserve for giving up the conveniences that people like me take for granted. (btw, did you think Arch or any of us for that matter could resist talking about you behind your back. 😉 ).
Later,
Howie
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I think, Howie, that she may have taken the buckboard to the convenience store – how’s that for an anachronism?
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your envisioning my buckboard pulled by horses, but the Tibetan yaks are so much better at pulling through 6 feet of snow!
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Re 6 ft of snow: it was 80 degrees here yesterday —
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OK, Laurie, last night, I scanned all 341 comments – don’t tell me I don’t have a life! – and admittedly could not find any reference to a statement I could have sworn you made about attending the Catholic Church for the ceremony – I can only assume it was some other
basket casecharming lady on another site, but I did run across some strange statements you made, though not in a single comment, leaving me to wonder about your definition of “Christian”:Then there was this statement:
After which, you talked about everything EXCEPT Moses, never referencing him again in that comment!
But later (another day), there were two, separate statements about Moses:
But the one thing you DID seem to forget, was the source of your assertion – which you seem to be avoiding like the plague – that Moses lived 1200 years before most biblical scholars say he was alleged to have lived. Though I may have a clue as to why this assertion was made, by whomever made it, that you’re parroting – it has long been established by biblical archaeologists that both Ai and Jericho were LONG gone before the Bible ever said that Joshua attacked them, BUT, if we could just push old Moses back 1200 years, we could make the fiction fit the facts!
Clever plan, but I’d still like the source, please —
Oh, and I’m still waiting on evidence regarding the 3000-year old T-Rex, the discovery of the fictional ark of the fictional Noah, and the discovery of the Red Sea crossing, of which you’ve claimed knowledge.
With great gobs of goat hugs, I remain, your obedient serpent —
(well, dino-bird, anyway!)
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I have to wonder, as the various disciplines of science continue to make more discoveries that cast an even more unfavorable light on religion, and theists keep bending and twisting the Bible, to try to make it fit established scientific data, will they finally twist it SO FAR out of shape that even the most gullible won’t recognize it?
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Hey John Zande and Finding Truth,
I just noticed this column over here. I didn’t read all the comments here so forgive me if anybody else made this point.
When you compare the Old and New Testaments to “Star Wars” or “Twilight” (as another one of my atheist friends did), you miss the point completely–and you actually help to make MY point. And that is that there is a supernatural designer involved in the gospel message.
It’s not as though there was one author who sat down and wrote the whole Old Testament. It’s a recorded history that was lived out by the Jewish people. (And even if you think the Pentateuch is myth with no archaeological evidence to support it, from the time of the judges on, even Zande admits there is archaeological evidence to support the historicity of the scriptures.) The “story” wasn’t designed by a human being. It was lived out by a people who had no idea how it would all fit together.
And even if one person wrote the New Testament (I call this person the “mystery writer”) he wouldn’t be starting from scratch and creating a narrative–he would be completing a LIVING narrative–a story that had a definite purpose and plan–which was revealed through the history of the Jewish people–not out of the mind of a man.
This is much different than having one author, or a group of authors, who merely write a story. The Jewish history was a reality which was used to reveal the supernatural influence of somebody in the universe who wanted the people of this planet to understand that there was a gracious way for them to be justified in the universal court of law.
The message of the Bible is that there is a planetary system of justice and each of us is hopelessly guilty, yet a messenger was sent–and how can we trust him? Because he would be the one who “fulfilled the law and the prophets.” We can trust this One because he is the culmination of “the hopes and fears of all the years.” (As the famous carol “O Little Town of Bethlehem” so eloquently puts it.)
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My point is this: by admitting the message of the Old and New Testaments are like a well-written book, you inadvertently point to a designer.
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Well, I, for one, Diana, would never admit that – quite the contrary – both “Testaments” are a hodge-podge of contradictions that, if it hadn’t been touted as a route to eternal life, would never have found a publisher.
As history, it’s an omelet of fact and fiction, and as literature, it’s at best poorly written.
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While it may be true that “It was lived out by a people,” it was written by a human being with his own agenda, who was free to embellish, add to, detract from, basically as he wished, as not one person in a thousand could even read in those days.
It was written in the Bible what vast kingdoms David and Solomon had, yet Israeli archaeologist, Finklestein, has found that David’s vast fortress consisted of about four square city blocks. It’s easy to take a little bit of history, and spin fantastic stories around it, but like cotton candy, it’s mostly air – no supernatural authors need apply —
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archaeopteryx1,
What human being with his own agenda wrote the Old Testament?
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I have no intention of wasting what little is left of my evening, listing all of those who contributed to writing the Bible, particularly since so many of them wrote anonymously. We have no idea, for example, who comprised the four groups of people who wrote the first five books, known as the Torah, what we DO know, is that it certainly wasn’t Moses.
A group of anonymous men, writing in the Southern Kingdom of Judah, at Jerusalem, who became in last century as the Yahwist (J) Source, about 950 BCE, wrote parts of what ultimately became the Torah. Another anonymous group, aka the Elohist (E) Source, writing in the Northern Kingdom of Schechem, wrote yet another part c. 750 BCE. A third group, known as the Deuteronomist (D) Source, wrote all of Deuteronomy about 850 BCE, and a fourth unnamed group, known as the Priestly (P) Source, wrote still more, including Genesis 1, while in captivity in Babylon, around 550 BCE. Finally, a further unnamed Redactor, in 400 BCE, pieced it all together like a patchwork quilt.
No one has ANY idea who wrote the four Gospels – I could go on, but there no real point.
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Diana,
First of all, thanks for the comments.
To get to your overall point, it’s possible to create a narrative using any history of any group of people. If you’ve ever read historical fiction, then you’ve seen it done. All it takes is a little bit of imagination to pull some themes from history and tie them together.
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