Not long ago, fellow blogger John Zande wrote an excellent post titled “Jesus Christ: Just Not Worth a Sheet of Paper.” It’s actually not as derogatory as the title suggests. Some apologists have suggested that the reason we have no contemporary accounts of Jesus’ life is that paper was so expensive. That’s the argument John deals with in his post.
His post is great — you should read it. But what I actually want to write about is one of the comments that someone left on it. Diana of NarrowWayApologetics.com left a lengthy comment that I decided to include here in its entirety. I identified with it a bit. It reminded me of some of the thoughts I used to have as a Christian:
One of the main reasons people believed Paul was because he explained the reason for Jesus coming into the world. His teachings were amazing. They explained how Jesus “fulfilled the law and the prophets.” I wrote this comment in response to John Zande’s comment on my blog last night. Forgive me for posting it here. Just ignore if you don’t want to read it.
“This passage about Jesus fulfilling the law and the prophets (Matthew 5:17-20) is one of the main reasons I believe the Gospel message. The incredible ways that Jesus did this are beyond human ability to create. I don’t think any mystery writer could have weaved together the incredible ways Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets.
I know this post is long, so if you want to skip the parts between the dotted lines, I understand. I just wrote it for anyone who might be interested.
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First of all, there are many ways Jesus fulfilled the law. In fact, believers are constantly astounded by how intricately Jesus fulfilled the law.One way he fulfilled the law was by fulfilling the Sabbath. The Sabbath was the seventh day of rest that the Jews were commanded to obey. Jesus fulfilled the law of the Sabbath by becoming our rest for us. (Hebrews 4:9-11) He said his burden was light and his yoke was easy. Christians no longer practice the Sabbath. They worship on Sunday, rather than Saturday. They enter into his rest and no longer do religious works for salvation. (They are saved by grace through faith.)
Jesus fulfilled the law when he became the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. His death on the cross was similar to the Exodus story, which described the lamb, whose blood would be placed on the doorposts of the home, causing the death angel to pass over that home. (Hebrews 9)
Jesus fulfilled the law when he became the unleavened bread of the Exodus story. Leaven is a symbol of sin and false teaching (1 Cor. 5:6-8, Matt. 16:12). Jesus fulfilled this feast by being sinless and being the TRUTH.
Another way that Jesus fulfilled the law was by becoming a tithe (firstfruits) for us. (Leviticus 23:10) He fulfilled the tithe by becoming the firstfruits from the dead when he was resurrected. (1 Cor. 15:20) Christians are no longer bound by a tithe, instead we are told to be cheerful givers. We are also promised that there will be a resurrection for us because of what Christ did for us.
Jesus fulfilled the law when he became a light to the Gentiles. In the law of Moses, the people were commanded to leave behind the gleanings (or leftovers) of the harvest for the poor and aliens. (Lev. 23:22) This would be fulfilled at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came down and the gospel was preached in all languages, offering salvation to all, not just the Jews. (Acts 10:34-35)
These fulfillments of the law were actually the first 4 feasts that would be celebrated every year by the Jews. They would be celebrated according to the seasons. The feasts celebrated during the early rains were the fulfilled at the time of the early church. Three more feasts are waiting to be fulfilled at the end of the age (or at the time of the latter rains). These three feasts are the feast of trumpets (representing the return of Jesus), the feast day of atonement (representing the salvation of the Jews), and the feast of tabernacles (representing the time when we will all be with the Lord).
There are so many other ways in which Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets. And none of it has to do with Jesus expecting or commanding Christians to obey the law to perfection. It has to do with how it’s impossible for anyone to keep the law. That is why Jesus came. How could any human conceive of a way to have even a made-up, fictional character fulfill all these things? And I’ve barely scratched the surface of the way Jesus accomplished these things.
The greatest concern I feel burdened about is how to convey the magnificence of what I’m trying to explain. He was the manna from heaven. He was the living water. He was the high priest in the order of Melchizedek. He is the “I AM.” He is the Word become flesh. He became a slave for us. (Philippians 2:7) He became a curse for us. He became sin for us, so we could become righteous before God. He offers us mercy because his blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat. All of this is explained in the scriptures.
I haven’t even begun to explain the way Jesus fulfilled the prophets.
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The story of Jewish history and the giving of the law is actually a way to PROVE the reality of God’s plan for the salvation of humanity through Jesus Christ. One random fact doesn’t prove anything, but the cumulative effect of ALL the fulfillments makes the Bible a miraculous book. This is why some of the brightest and best minds in the history of the world have loved and received Jesus. It isn’t a decision based on emotion alone, but a decision based on knowledge. And the more I learn, the more I am in awe of what God did and how he accomplished it.”
To say that the story of Jesus was just created by pasting together myths, fictional narratives, sayings, and borrowed phrases (as Ken Humphreys does) is a ridiculous claim because only a Christ could have conceived of a Christ. Who could have created the amazing Jesus portrayed in the Gospels and explained further by Paul?
Of course, I now see that there are several problems with this line of thinking. In 2015, Star Wars Episode 7 is supposed to hit theaters. Will it shock anyone if the movie syncs up perfectly with the previous 6? The thing is, when there is already an established back story, it’s not impossible to construct a narrative that builds upon it. The fact that we as readers see the parallels between the stories of Jesus and events in the Old Testament is not an accident. The authors intended for us to see those parallels, and there’s no reason why they couldn’t have invented them — even if Jesus was a real person.
Matthew is one of the best books to look to for evidence of this. Matthew is the only book that tells of Jesus’ family fleeing to Egypt to escape Herod’s infanticide. Both events, fleeing to Egypt and the infanticide, seem to be inspired by Matthew’s reading of the Old Testament. Hosea 11:1 says, “out of Egypt, I called my son.” Matthew says that this prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus’ family returned after fleeing to Egypt. But when you read the entire chapter of Hosea 11, it’s very evident that the passage has nothing to do with the Messiah, but is simply talking about Israel’s period of captivity in Egypt.
Matthew also claims that Herod’s slaughter of infants in Bethlehem was to fulfill this prophecy:
A voice is heard in Ramah,
lamentation and bitter weeping.
Rachel is weeping for her children;
she refuses to be comforted for her children,
because they are no more.
But once again, when we read all of Jeremiah 31, this was no prophecy at all. The chapter is talking about Israel’s captivity in Assyria. Nothing else.
The author of Matthew took these passages and used them to add parallels to the story about Jesus’ birth. It didn’t require magic or divine inspiration to do that — it only took knowledge of these passages. Just like the people working on Star Wars 7 don’t need divine intervention to let them know about Darth Vader.
Diana ends her comment by asking who could have created such a compelling story. Who could have created Christ? But why couldn’t we ask this about anyone? Who could have created Darth Vader? He’s quite a compelling character himself. Who could have created someone as magnificent as Santa Claus? Or Paul Bunyan? Or Achilles? Or King Arthur? Just asking this question doesn’t really mean anything. If Jesus never existed, then someone did just create his story. Or if he was a real person, but not divine, then his story was embellished. We have to draw our conclusions about Jesus based on the evidence, including the fact that Matthew seemed to feel the need to create “prophecies” to give Jesus credibility.
Finding Truth 
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While that is a very interesting take on what occurred, I don’t really see it that way. First off, there were 12 true apostles not 11 and that would make Paul the 13th apostle with 13 books. Secondly, in the 3 places he recounts his conversion story, they are all very different. In the last one he doesn’t even mention being blind, but he does make a false prophecy in Yeshuas name. Also, in my opinion, just because he wrote more does not make him right. Ellen white is the most printed and published female author ever, but that doesn’t make her claim of prophetess true 😉
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RE: “I don’t really see it that way.” – had you said anything different, I wouldn’t be typing this, I’d be passed out on the floor.
As a sidenote – I’m not familiar with Ellen White, but I believe – not that it’s relavant – that Danielle Steel is the most-published American author. “But that doesn’t make her claim of prophetess true” – no, of course not, but if you accept Abraham Lincoln’s “You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time,” then it stands to reason, that simply based on the law of averages, a ratio between the gullible over the rational – and considering the number of religious people in the world, I’d have to guess that to be a high figure – the more prolific the writer = the wider the audience = the more converts.
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RE: “In the last one he doesn’t even mention being blind, but he does make a false prophecy in Yeshuas name.” – do me a favor, if you would Laurie, I’d like to take a closer look at that, could you save me some time by giving me book, chapter and verse on that? You seem to have it at your fingertips —
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Arch, off the top of my head, I think the three passages that talk about Paul’s conversion are Acts 9, 22, and 26. It may be recounted in one of his epistles as well, but I can’t remember…
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Holy Jumping Through a Hoop!!
102 comments??? I wish I had as many readers as you, but it seems that folks will follow blogs by intelligent, reasonable, thoughtful non-believers or they’ll follow blogs by intellectually dishonest, frightened believers, but there’s no market for blogs written by intelligent, reasonable, thoughtful believers.
Whatever.
Allow me to respond to the blogger from NarrowWayApologetics.com
@Diana
Here’s what. I will accept your argument without a fight. You and I will agree that any fair minded person who considers the particulars of Jesus’ birth, life and death in light of the prophesies of the Hebrew Scriptures will have to conclude that the evidence that Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophesies is astonishing.
The facts of the matter simply cannot be dismissed as coincidence or exaggeration or deceit. Something occurred that is far beyond ‘dumb luck’ and the folks who deny this are simply grabbing at straws.
Are we OK so far?
The problem, for me, is that thousands of astonishing things have happened in the long history of this wide world — some are even more astonishing than Jesus’ fulfillment of prophesy. My belief is that NONE of these astonishing things can be explained away as examples of ‘coincidence’; but the fact that something is more than coincidence doesn’t, of force, indicate that the explanation is supernatural or divine. My response to the astonishing is this: “It can’t be luck, it might be God, or it might be something else entirely that we human beings are unable to identify at this stage of our collective development. Maybe the reasons will become clear to us in future generations. Maybe we’ll never make sense of it.”
Jumping to the conclusion that divine intervention is at work seems like sloppy reasoning to me.
More importantly, though, I think it is intellectually and spiritually dangerous to put your faith in someone simply because there are things about their lives or their actions that are astonishing.
I’m not a disciple of Christ because Jesus walked on water (even if he did) nor because he appeared to many witnesses after he died (even if he did) , nor am I a Christian because his mother conceived him as a virgin (even if she did). None of those things prove anything to me. It’s not that I don’t believe them, it’s that I don’t think their veracity even matters. These stories are important because they’re instructive, not because we believe they literally happened.
I’m a Christian because I believe in the forgiveness of sins. I believe that the single most important thing a person can do in her/his life is to come to understand that her/his that all their wrongdoing is forgiven and — even more importantly — to extend forgiveness to everyone who’s done them wrong. I care much, much more about WHO God is than I care about whether or not he actually exists (put that in your pipe and smoke it!). I believe that the core reality of life, and of the universe is mercy and complete self giving. That’s the core reality of existence and it’s the core revelation of Christianity — so, for me, Christianity it is….
Paul
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Thanks, Nate!
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CaptainCatholic- “Here’s what. I will accept your argument without a fight. You and I will agree that any fair minded person who considers the particulars of Jesus’ birth, life and death in light of the prophesies of the Hebrew Scriptures will have to conclude that the evidence that Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophesies is astonishing.”
I personally do not find those scriptures so astonishing. The new testament was passed down predominantly orally for decades by believers intimately familiar with the Jewish prophecies and who were desperate to give their new religion(Christianity) legitimacy. If you have ever played Chinese whispers then I am sure you know how things can be tacked on and changed from the original truth.
Then of course we have the Jews, who scripture and prophecy it is actually based upon, who will be the first to tell you that Jesus did not fulfill their messianic prophecy.
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RE: “I’m a Christian because I believe in the forgiveness of sins” – and considering that sin is defined as an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law, I can safely say I’m an atheist because I don’t believe in sin.
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Good thoughts, Paul. Very nicely stated.
Nate-
Good to see a new post up! And, over 100 comments again!!! Great blog, very thought-provoking 😉
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I liked this!! 🙂 I think you and I think alike in some ways, we have just come to different conclusions (at present, at any rate).
Yes, I think it is likely that many of the NT writers thought Jesus would return soon and sort everything out – that’s the assumption that started Matthew 24 after all. But I can’t see the big deal in that. They possibly thought the world was flat and the sun was bigger than Betelgeuse too.
I think what I am suggesting is indeed a plain reading. I think most comments here bring to the text a number of expectations that are unjustified. If we could approach Matthew 24 and the gospels generally like a visiting alien, I think we would not assume that this discourse is “prophecy” and that prophecy must be as we imagine it to be. We would observe that Jesus often spoke in figures of speech, riddles, parable, etc, often answered questions with questions, and answered different questions than the ones asked of him. (I think there are reasons for this.)
And so we would maybe get out of it something like what was intended, and not reject so quickly something that maybe wasn’t intended.
Not sure how universalism came up, but while I’m not a universalist, I wish it were true and I agree with you that universalists shouldn’t give others a hard time. Best wishes.
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I guess that Alzheimers has already begun setting in unk, as I said we would discuss things further when you had some actual evidence that your Yeshua ever existed. You suggested I read a piece entitled, “Is there really a consensus of scholars on historical facts about Jesus?” in which you mentioned Bart Ehrman, but then quoted nothing by him, in a piece that offered a dozen or more statements that Yeshua surely existed, but no evidence to support them.
In the second piece, “Was Jesus a real person?” – a much better written piece – Mr. Ehrman was actually allowed to speak, and surprisingly, was the only author mentioned who provided any information that might lead one to actually believe he ever lived.
The piece ended, however, with this, which would seem to sum up the situation nicely:
As for your persistent effort to prove me wrong, if I recall (and I’ve had a number of actually IMPORTANT things come across my plate since then), I said that since, of the four anonymous authors of the Gospels, Pseudo-Matthew and Pseudo-Luke had copied from Psuedo-Mark, that made Psuedo-Mark, Pseudo-John and Paul the only original stories of all of the biblical authors, or something to that effect. You brought up Quelle (Q), saying that that made a fourth source, then you went further, to say that since Psuedo-Mark and Q contributions to the writings of Pseudo-Matthew and Pseudo-Luke totaled less, when combined, than 100% of those writings, you insisted that I not only add Q to my list of authors of original stories, i.e., Psuedo-Mark, Pseudo-John and Paul, I must also add Q, and for the small percentages of Pseudo-Matthew and Pseudo-Luke, not copied from Psuedo-Mark and Q, those two should be added as well, bringing the total to six.
Hardly. Quelle is believed by many to have been used by Pseudo-Matthew and Pseudo-Luke, and possibly even by Pseudo-Mark, but that doesn’t make Q a contributor, only a scribe, of whom it is said that possibly he copied some of Yeshua’s sayings, if indeed Yeshua ever existed, hence, I choose not to include him. As for Pseudo-Matthew and Pseudo-Luke, it has already been established that neither ever knew Yeshua, if he ever existed, they copied from Pseudo-Mark, they copied from Q – who is to say that the rest of what was attributed to them, wasn’t copied from someone else, and even if it weren’t, how reliable could the pieces of work be, of a person about whom it has been established, copied from two separate sources? Which brings us back to 3, or 4 if you count Peter.
Then too, I have only your word for the percentages you quoted as to how much of their Gospels Pseudo-Matthew and Pseudo-Luke copied, and from whom, and what percentage they actually wrote.
So I’m kinda gonna have to pass on accepting your word for any of it.
BTW – if you’re involved in an ingratiation contest, you may have noticed that, surprisingly, Howie actually beat you, just when I thought no one could possibly be more smarmy – sorry.
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Archaeopterxy1,
Sorry about that, I have been building in the barn. Any how, Nate is correct. Just in case you didn’t see all the discrepancies, I will list the big ones below.
In one account Saul fell to the ground and the others stood. In another they all fell.
In one account the men with him heard the voice, and in the other they heard not the voice.
In one account Yeshua gave him his mission on the road, and the other two it was Ananias in Damascus.
In acts Paul said he went to Damascus and then Jerusalem and all Judea first, and then to the gentiles. But in Galatians 1:15-20 he swears before God that he is not lying, that he did not go to Jerusalem. Why would he feel the need to say he is not lying as often as he does, if he had not been accused of it?
The last story he tells king Agrippa that Yeshua gave him his mission right there on the road. No blindness, no scales falling from his eyes, no Ananias or Judas. The interesting thing that happens next is that he tells the king that Yeshua said he would be delivered from the hands of the Jews and from the gentiles to whom I now send you. Shortly there after he declare to see Caesar. Festus says he could have been set free, but since he declared to see Caesar, to Caesar he shall go. Unfortunately for him, that was Nero, who loved to use Christians as light poles in his garden, and Paul was not released, but beheaded some time later.
As if that wasn’t enough, Yeshua said if any one sees me in the wilderness (which the road to Damascus was the wilderness) go not after them. According to Acts 22:14 and most of Christianity, Paul claimed to SEE the Messiah in the desert. Yeshua said nobody would see him till every eye saw him at his coming. John the Revelator did not see him, he was in vision. But Paul saw him in the desert, in the wilderness.
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Rocky John,
Would you be more likely to believe, if the Israelites accepted him?
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Hi archaeopteryx1, thanks for reading my stuff and replying.
You don’t have to take my word for the number of verses in each source, that info is available everywhere. And I’m not sure what is the conclusion of your discussion of sources, but since Q is about 232 verses, M is about 226 and L is about 577, I still can’t see any reason why you didn’t rate them.
But where I feel really pissed off is in your awarding Howie the win in the “ingratiation contest”. I have been practicing my smarmy for years now (it’s called politeness where I live), and to be beaten by a mere amateur like Howie is a crushing blow!
So I’ll leave the discussion field to you, and head off to the smarminess school to do my PhD! 🙂
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I really enjoy reading your comments Unkle E! 🙂
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Laurie, The disembodied figure that Paul claimed to see did not give Paul his mission while he was on the road to Damascus. The “voice” told him to “enter the city” where he would be told what to do (Acts 9:3-6).
Also, if you haven’t already noticed, Paul himself says very little in his writings about his experience. Most all of it is laid out in Acts, which was written by (at least some scholars believe) a friend and admirer of Paul. Further, there are three accounts of what happened (Acts: 9:3-19; 22:6-21; 26:12-18). It isn’t until the last version that the reader actually learns the mission that Paul has (supposedly) been given by the phantom voice.
One other thing. I’m sure you’re aware that Paul’s mystic experience didn’t take place until approximately three years after Jesus had died and made his “heavenly ascent” (some scholars place it as late as six years). Makes you wonder why he waited so long to pay Paul a visit, doesn’t it?
I totally support your take on Paul. He is surely a wolf in disguise.
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Well Paul must have been really confused! First he gets his mission in town from Ananias, and then later in Acts 26:16 Yeshua tells him to “rise up and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a witness and minister of the things you have seen, and the things which I will reveal to you……….” And so on and so forth.
This is only the tip of the iceberg! It’s nice to know some one else can see this! And why is it so hard to believe, God said he was going to send a false prophet to test us and see if we would keep his commandments! It is a test, the sifting of the wheat from the tares.
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“I really enjoy reading your comments Unkle E! “
Thanks Laurie. And I enjoy reading yours. Even though we would disagree about some important things, I think we have similar values and agree on a lot.
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That’s a lot of information – thanks for that, Laurie!
arch
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@Rocky John,
OK, OK. Fair’s fair. I gave Diana’s line of reasoning my unconditional acceptance and didn’t use a bit of critical thinking to challenge her conclusions. I really should offer you the same arrangement.
Very well, you and I will agree that, after Jesus died, the remaining disciples were desperate to justify their decision to keep the band together so they decided to stretch and contort the scriptures every which way until they cobbled together something that might “pass” as evidence that Jesus was the Messiah.
How, I ask, does that make any difference to me — or to you, for that matter? Desperate times call for desperate measures and people will do whatever needs doing in order to survive. I won’t fault those folks, living so far away and so long ago, for doing what they did. Why should you?
I’n focused on the fact that Jesus called for repentance and, after he died, the apostles kept on with the job. When they died, their disciples continued the work; and when they died their disciples carried on and so forth. It’s been two thousand years and the Church still calls us to repent. That’s what interests me because that’s what’s important.
I’m sitting here in my comfortable suburban condo outside of Boston and I’ve organized my life upon the premise that my concerns and my well-being are more important than other people’s. Can we call that selfishness? Selfishness is what I’ve got to repent. The Church calls me to stop putting myself first and to start giving a crap about you and about everyone else — and I’m either going to do that or I’m not going to do that, and whether I do or I don’t is what matters.
The rest is dust.
Paul
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No problem Arch! As a woman, sometimes I feel like people should be able to read my mind, and understand my ramblings. But on the good chance that I did a crap job explaining anything, please let me know.
Unkle, I believe in the Tanach, and I believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, what I don’t believe is Paul. I appreciate your kindness, as a lot of Pauline Christians seem to want me to know that I am going to hell. Although they may be really wonderful people, I feel this is a really poor example for someone who claims to worship Ya. So… Yes there are important things that we don’t agree on, but I appreciate your posts none the less! 🙂
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Laurie, I had gathered some of that, but thanks for the clarification. I don’t think I have even met anyone with those views before, and I’d like to hear your story some time, but I think this comment thread is long enough.
Yes, condemning people to hell is not our place (and I don’t believe in the traditional hell anyway). I think God is a little more tolerant than most christians, and I think following Jesus is the key thing and all the rest may help or hinder, but isn’t central. Hopefully I’ll see you around.
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It shows —
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