Not long ago, fellow blogger John Zande wrote an excellent post titled “Jesus Christ: Just Not Worth a Sheet of Paper.” It’s actually not as derogatory as the title suggests. Some apologists have suggested that the reason we have no contemporary accounts of Jesus’ life is that paper was so expensive. That’s the argument John deals with in his post.
His post is great — you should read it. But what I actually want to write about is one of the comments that someone left on it. Diana of NarrowWayApologetics.com left a lengthy comment that I decided to include here in its entirety. I identified with it a bit. It reminded me of some of the thoughts I used to have as a Christian:
One of the main reasons people believed Paul was because he explained the reason for Jesus coming into the world. His teachings were amazing. They explained how Jesus “fulfilled the law and the prophets.” I wrote this comment in response to John Zande’s comment on my blog last night. Forgive me for posting it here. Just ignore if you don’t want to read it.
“This passage about Jesus fulfilling the law and the prophets (Matthew 5:17-20) is one of the main reasons I believe the Gospel message. The incredible ways that Jesus did this are beyond human ability to create. I don’t think any mystery writer could have weaved together the incredible ways Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets.
I know this post is long, so if you want to skip the parts between the dotted lines, I understand. I just wrote it for anyone who might be interested.
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First of all, there are many ways Jesus fulfilled the law. In fact, believers are constantly astounded by how intricately Jesus fulfilled the law.One way he fulfilled the law was by fulfilling the Sabbath. The Sabbath was the seventh day of rest that the Jews were commanded to obey. Jesus fulfilled the law of the Sabbath by becoming our rest for us. (Hebrews 4:9-11) He said his burden was light and his yoke was easy. Christians no longer practice the Sabbath. They worship on Sunday, rather than Saturday. They enter into his rest and no longer do religious works for salvation. (They are saved by grace through faith.)
Jesus fulfilled the law when he became the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. His death on the cross was similar to the Exodus story, which described the lamb, whose blood would be placed on the doorposts of the home, causing the death angel to pass over that home. (Hebrews 9)
Jesus fulfilled the law when he became the unleavened bread of the Exodus story. Leaven is a symbol of sin and false teaching (1 Cor. 5:6-8, Matt. 16:12). Jesus fulfilled this feast by being sinless and being the TRUTH.
Another way that Jesus fulfilled the law was by becoming a tithe (firstfruits) for us. (Leviticus 23:10) He fulfilled the tithe by becoming the firstfruits from the dead when he was resurrected. (1 Cor. 15:20) Christians are no longer bound by a tithe, instead we are told to be cheerful givers. We are also promised that there will be a resurrection for us because of what Christ did for us.
Jesus fulfilled the law when he became a light to the Gentiles. In the law of Moses, the people were commanded to leave behind the gleanings (or leftovers) of the harvest for the poor and aliens. (Lev. 23:22) This would be fulfilled at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came down and the gospel was preached in all languages, offering salvation to all, not just the Jews. (Acts 10:34-35)
These fulfillments of the law were actually the first 4 feasts that would be celebrated every year by the Jews. They would be celebrated according to the seasons. The feasts celebrated during the early rains were the fulfilled at the time of the early church. Three more feasts are waiting to be fulfilled at the end of the age (or at the time of the latter rains). These three feasts are the feast of trumpets (representing the return of Jesus), the feast day of atonement (representing the salvation of the Jews), and the feast of tabernacles (representing the time when we will all be with the Lord).
There are so many other ways in which Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets. And none of it has to do with Jesus expecting or commanding Christians to obey the law to perfection. It has to do with how it’s impossible for anyone to keep the law. That is why Jesus came. How could any human conceive of a way to have even a made-up, fictional character fulfill all these things? And I’ve barely scratched the surface of the way Jesus accomplished these things.
The greatest concern I feel burdened about is how to convey the magnificence of what I’m trying to explain. He was the manna from heaven. He was the living water. He was the high priest in the order of Melchizedek. He is the “I AM.” He is the Word become flesh. He became a slave for us. (Philippians 2:7) He became a curse for us. He became sin for us, so we could become righteous before God. He offers us mercy because his blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat. All of this is explained in the scriptures.
I haven’t even begun to explain the way Jesus fulfilled the prophets.
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The story of Jewish history and the giving of the law is actually a way to PROVE the reality of God’s plan for the salvation of humanity through Jesus Christ. One random fact doesn’t prove anything, but the cumulative effect of ALL the fulfillments makes the Bible a miraculous book. This is why some of the brightest and best minds in the history of the world have loved and received Jesus. It isn’t a decision based on emotion alone, but a decision based on knowledge. And the more I learn, the more I am in awe of what God did and how he accomplished it.”
To say that the story of Jesus was just created by pasting together myths, fictional narratives, sayings, and borrowed phrases (as Ken Humphreys does) is a ridiculous claim because only a Christ could have conceived of a Christ. Who could have created the amazing Jesus portrayed in the Gospels and explained further by Paul?
Of course, I now see that there are several problems with this line of thinking. In 2015, Star Wars Episode 7 is supposed to hit theaters. Will it shock anyone if the movie syncs up perfectly with the previous 6? The thing is, when there is already an established back story, it’s not impossible to construct a narrative that builds upon it. The fact that we as readers see the parallels between the stories of Jesus and events in the Old Testament is not an accident. The authors intended for us to see those parallels, and there’s no reason why they couldn’t have invented them — even if Jesus was a real person.
Matthew is one of the best books to look to for evidence of this. Matthew is the only book that tells of Jesus’ family fleeing to Egypt to escape Herod’s infanticide. Both events, fleeing to Egypt and the infanticide, seem to be inspired by Matthew’s reading of the Old Testament. Hosea 11:1 says, “out of Egypt, I called my son.” Matthew says that this prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus’ family returned after fleeing to Egypt. But when you read the entire chapter of Hosea 11, it’s very evident that the passage has nothing to do with the Messiah, but is simply talking about Israel’s period of captivity in Egypt.
Matthew also claims that Herod’s slaughter of infants in Bethlehem was to fulfill this prophecy:
A voice is heard in Ramah,
lamentation and bitter weeping.
Rachel is weeping for her children;
she refuses to be comforted for her children,
because they are no more.
But once again, when we read all of Jeremiah 31, this was no prophecy at all. The chapter is talking about Israel’s captivity in Assyria. Nothing else.
The author of Matthew took these passages and used them to add parallels to the story about Jesus’ birth. It didn’t require magic or divine inspiration to do that — it only took knowledge of these passages. Just like the people working on Star Wars 7 don’t need divine intervention to let them know about Darth Vader.
Diana ends her comment by asking who could have created such a compelling story. Who could have created Christ? But why couldn’t we ask this about anyone? Who could have created Darth Vader? He’s quite a compelling character himself. Who could have created someone as magnificent as Santa Claus? Or Paul Bunyan? Or Achilles? Or King Arthur? Just asking this question doesn’t really mean anything. If Jesus never existed, then someone did just create his story. Or if he was a real person, but not divine, then his story was embellished. We have to draw our conclusions about Jesus based on the evidence, including the fact that Matthew seemed to feel the need to create “prophecies” to give Jesus credibility.
Finding Truth 
@Paul
You really must give me the name of your dealer, Paul. Whatever it is you’re smoking is worth it’s weight in Gold.
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@unklee
This piece was written with the likes of yourself in mind. But I believe it should clear up a few issues for believers and non-believers alike (although the non believers are pretty much clued up on this already.)
http://attaleuntold.wordpress.com/2013/10/10/jesus-or-yeshua/
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Uncle E,
I’m sure there will be many other opportunities for me to clarify some of the points I made in future posts. Or if you want I can come back here on the weekend when I’ll have more time to clarify.
There is one suggestion I’d like to make for you that you can take or leave (as with any other things I write here): If you would like not to be misunderstood then you may want to change the whole “This has been a small test on being evidence-based” perspective. It does kind of indicate that you have some hidden agenda or ulterior motive rather than you simply trying to write down the things that you personally believe are facts and then simply allowing others to agree to disagree.
You may want to keep in mind that getting _anyone_ (no matter what their worldview is) to admit in public that they are wrong on a particular fact is a very tough thing. Especially when the small facts that you might dispute don’t really detract very much from the overall conclusion that the person is trying to express. I don’t believe that just because there are tons of Christians out there who won’t admit to things that I personally believe are facts about evolution implies that the Christian message is wrong. My conclusion about Christianity is based on a lot of other things. Yes, I fully agree with you that it’s important to speak things truly as best we can, but I just think that testing people to see if they are willing to publicly declare they were wrong about facts here and there doesn’t really help to prove anything more than humans can be stubborn and unwilling to be embarrassed or shown to be not trusted publicly, but it seems this is somehow important to you.
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Yeah, unk! What Howie said! Shame on you, shame, shame, shame!
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You’re cracking me up Arch – I’m hoping when Unk wakes up he also takes this with some humor. Maybe I got a bit too serious about it.
But I think Uncle E has this thing where he believes atheists are wrong when they say that they are evidence based versus faith based. And it seems he wants to prove that by showing that atheists make a bunch of mistakes on their facts and won’t admit when they get facts wrong. But again this just proves that we can all be a bit stubborn or wrong at times. The whole faith versus evidence thing is a whole other long discussion. But to me the most telling thing is that religious people very often urge others to “have faith” when forming their beliefs (although Uncle E doesn’t really do this because I personally do feel he leans more toward trying his best to base his beliefs on evidence), but I’ve rarely seen an atheist urge others to “have faith” when forming their beliefs. There is definitely a difference here.
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@Howie – I tried using my best Gomer Pyle voice, I don’t know whether or not it came across in print.
I caught that early on, and decided I wasn’t playing his game, and as for, “I’m hoping when Unk wakes up he also takes this with some humor.” – I’m sure he will, he seemed to think it was funny when I basically said you outdid him in ingratiating politeness, he bemoaned the fact that he’d lost out to a rank amateur, when he’d been practicing his particular brand of sycophancy for years. I’d have to describe unk much as Douglas Adams did the Earth – “mostly harmless”.
arch
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I should have added this – it’s my opinion that theists believe, while atheists think.
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Somehow I missed out on that part before – awesome I’ve got a phD in smarmy without even going to school! At least I’ve got the Arch Honorary Degree. 😉
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:>)
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Ark,
I read the post you linked to, and I am wondering what issues it is supposed to clear up? I get the feeling that the only evidence for Yeshua’s existence you will accept is a documented birth certificate, social security number, and fine print on file. Really…. Let’s be fair. Yeshua was not Caesar, so he will not have coins with his name, or battles recorded in history. There is however evidence that he was real besides the historical accounts of people that you think are not trustworthy. What people aren’t really being realistic about, is how much evidence should we expect from what most people in his time would have considered an average Joe? In my opinion, an ossuary inscribed with “James son of Joseph brother of Jesus” is good evidence that he did in fact exist, not not the only evidence we have by a long shot. All I am saying is, let’s be fair.
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Not being cranky, just making an observation that could be right or wrong O:-) how’s that for smarmy!
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Personally, I’m betting he was born in Kenya!
RE:
All seriousness aside, do you by any chance have a link for that, Laurie? I recall seeing something about it a long time ago, but I’ve long since forgotten where.
It means a lot to you, doesn’t it Laurie, to believe that he exists? I can’t make fun of that, even though I don’t personally believe – I recall all too vividly the anguish I felt the first time a kid told me there was no Santa, I wouldn’t want to put anyone else through that.
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Laurie, now I feel terrible because you may beat me out for smarmy when I was just basking in the glory! 😉
In my opinion, if you want the best analysis of the mythicist position regarding Jesus you’ll have to wait for Richard Carrier’s book to come out next year. But for me others have tried in the past and failed to convince enough scholars (even the very liberal ones). And yes, seriously this doesn’t guarantee it – I don’t say that to be smarmy, I say it because it’s simply the perspective I have. Even if every scholar believed that Jesus never existed that doesn’t guarantee it (and vice versa obviously). Think about how many very smart people believed that the sun revolved around the earth 2500 years ago. If you questioned it then you would have been labelled nutso – but you would have been wrong!
Don’t get me wrong, I agree that we can be fair and reasonable and likely come closer to truth, and there are a lot of things we can have great assurance of using evidence and critical reasoning. When I try my best at this regarding the existence of Jesus I presently lean toward thinking he existed. But it’s also fair to say that when apologists make claims like “his historicity is as sure as the Holocaust”, or “his historicity is as sure as Julius Caesar” then they are not being fair.
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oops – re the sun earth thing I meant to say “you would have been right”
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It’s OK, but with all due respect, Sweet Lady, it’s nowhere near the smarmy masterpiece that that one comment of Howie’s, to unkleE, was – I could be wrong, that could well be Howie’s normal polite writing style, but when I read the comment, I cracked up!
I thought to myself, “this guy has snapped to unkleE’s ingratiating game, and has decided to write a comment SO ingratiating, it’ll put unk to shame –!“
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RE: “Think about how many very smart people believed that the sun revolved around the earth 2500 years ago.”
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Come on Arch, sound to me like you think I operate on blind faith! I am very analytical, and the facts are important to me. I did start to doubt the scriptures for a while when I found out there are some errors, but the more I study it the more it blows me away. It is a literary masterpiece like the world has never seen, a book full of puzzles. And if you figure out how to read it, it tells the most important part of history, history before the world was here. It answers the most important question, not how did we get here, but why are we here in the first place. A question that many THINK they can answer.
Btw, I never taught my kids about Santa;-)
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It is my normal writing style Arch, and maybe I need to re-think how I write to come across as I want to – I want to be polite but not in an underhanded way. I don’t mind you making fun of it, but if you really believe it then I’m doing something wrong.
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Well, in that case I was
wro– not entirely correct, you’re not the delicate flower I supposed you to be. You are of course entitled to your opinion – somewhere, many, many moons ago, I read this, but neglected to get the author, as I didn’t think I’d ever need it: ” Let him (or her) clean better if he can, the windows of his soul, so that he might see the beauty and prospect more clearly.”That said, I see the whole Bible, old and new, as a hodge-podge of stories that seem to divide themselves into trying, without any scientific background, to make sense of things, and into trying to control a population and enforce the beliefs of a few who think they know better than anyone, what is best for mankind, much like the Muslims who are trying to gradually bring Sharia law to Europe.
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No, no, Howie, there’s nothing in the world wrong with your writing style, I just mistakenly thought you were making fun of the Man from UnkleE’s sycophancy, that’s all. You’re polite, a knack that for some reason, I never quite managed to acquire. There’s nothing at all wrong with that.
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Arch, I don’t know where to send you? You could try the IAA Israeli antiques authority. Another thing to realize is that while finding Noahs ark and the red sea crossing were great for them, evidence to support Yeshua is not. They are very difficult, and make it hard to get permission for digs, and things of that sort. I expect that there will be a lot more evidence unearthed in the years to come. So keep an open mind and I will always do the same
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I messed that up – shame there’s no way to edit our comments – let me try it again:
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Okay, lets square this away once and for all for all the intransigent blinkered believers out there.
Maybe there was a smelly little eschatological preacher called Jesus running around Palestine at the turn of the first century. I have no idea. And could care even less. Josephus mentions a couple of Jesuses, maybe one of them was such a bloke?
But the biblical character; the miracle performing man-god called Jesus of Nazareth who came back from the dead and may or may not have shagged Mary Magdalene and was inserted into history by the likes of Eusebius, Constantine and ratified by everyone’s favorite, Emperor Theodosius, is a narrative construct, a work of pure fiction, and only a myopic, self-serving idiot would consider this character ”real” in any sense of the word.
I sincerely hope this has cleared up any and all misunderstanding?
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Ohhh, I see. am I just a myopic self serving idiot, for believing in “NT” writings, or does that include anyone that believes in the dead sea crossing, and Noahs ark also?
I know you were really hoping to have cleared things up with your opinion, but opinions rarely do that here 🙂
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Are you saying, Laurie, that they’ve found something they (whoever they are) are passing off as the ark from that fictitious story, set allegedly in 2348 BCE (according to Arch-Bishop Ussher), of a global flood that covered all of the mountains and 15 cubits (22.5 feet) beyond, an act requiring a volume of water to equal 159.72 quintillion cubic feet, or 1+ sextillion gallons, of which, in, on, under and above the earth, there are only 326 quintillion gallons (National Geological Survey), leaving us c.836.85+ quintillion gallons short – bear in mind that about 90% of the existing H2O is already at, or below, sea level, and sadly, not available for flooding.
The story was plagiarized from an ACTUAL flood that occurred in Mesopotamia, near the ancient city of Shurrapak in 2900 BCE, at which time, the Euphrates River overflowed its banks, to a depth of – wait for it – 15 cubits (22.5 feet), flooding an area we would, today, find comparable to about three counties. the King of Surrapak (Mesopotamia, at the time, was filled with many, autonomous city-states), Ziusudra, escaped on a trading barge, loaded with cotton, and cattle and beer (oh my!).
One of the very first actual pieces of fiction ever written, used this event as a centerpiece, “The Epic of Gilgamesh,” the story of a young warrior in search of eternal life – in the story, he seeks out an ancient king, Utinapishtum – the fictionalized version of Ziusudra – who told of his experiences in the flood, brought by the gods. Old Ut sent out ravens and doves, just like someone else we know, and when he finally disemb-arked, he built an altar and sacrificed an animal, “The gods smelled the savor, the gods smelled the sweet savor and collected like flies over a sacrifice.”
You’ll never guess what old Yahweh did when Noah built an altar and sacrificed one of the few animals left on the earth: (Gen 8:21) “the Lord smelled the sweet savor“! I guess that must just be a thing that gods do —
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