I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
Again, Mormon theology fails miserably..
How do you know the angel Moroni didn’t appear to Joseph Smith? His claim that an angel did appear to him is no less valid than angels appearing to people in the Bible.
I’m asking for your theory on how the author of THIS text.. not a child’s belief or a fooled Mormon’s belief.. but how the author of Genesis could be writing those detailed “false” claims while believing it.
The same way that other religions believe their own various creation myths and have written them down. A theory: perhaps the original teller of the tale had a dream…a vision if you will. Perhaps they were using medicinal herbs. Who knows really? Where did any religion or culture get their creation myths? But the people of those religions and cultures believe them. And they believe they were given to them divinely. So why is it so hard for you to apply that same scrutiny to Genesis’ creation account?
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“You keep avoiding/ evading the specifics Nate. Again, Mormon theology fails miserably.. they DON’T have the evidence to back up their beliefs.. just like the child with the tooth fairy.” – kathy
LOL, and like christianity…
oh yeah, christians have martyrs
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“Kathy, how are you not getting this? Did Moses live at the time of creation? Did he live during the time of the flood? Did he live during Abraham’s life, or Jacob’s, or Joseph’s? No. Even if Moses had really been the one to write all this he couldn’t have known it firsthand either. Just as I would have died for my (erroneous) Christian beliefs when I was a believer, I’m sure Moses would have died for his beliefs as well. That doesn’t make either one of us right.”
Like I am not aware of Moses not being alive at the time of creation.. clearly either he was given Divine inspiration or he was given false information. The entire Bible and what it stands for is my argument that it’s Divine inspiration.. now I’m asking for YOUR evidence that argues your claim.
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WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
OF COURSE my claims don’t fit with scripture — I think scripture is bogus! And I’m not obfuscating anything. When I point out specific problems in specific passages, you just say they’re not big deals (as you did with my very first “Kathy” post), or you say that we may not fully understand God, or some other kind of empty excuse. So I then go to examples that you’ll likely agree with, hoping it gets us on the same page so I can make an analogy to better show you my point. But you seem to misunderstand this very common technique that humans use with one another.
I’m completely at a loss with how to communicate effectively with you, and I’m obviously getting pretty frustrated with trying.
Can someone help a brother out? Where am I going wrong?
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Ruth,
“Again, Mormon theology fails miserably..
How do you know the angel Moroni didn’t appear to Joseph Smith? His claim that an angel did appear to him is no less valid than angels appearing to people in the Bible. ”
Um.. the lack of EVIDENCE… maybe??
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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“Fascinating Arch.. just FASCINATING! Now, could you please provide the evidence that supports this “claim”? thanks!”
I did – three or four times – maybe you should have read it when it was presented to you, instead of ignoring it as you usually do.
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Kathy, what’s your EVIDENCE that Mormonism is false?
Be specific, please.
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“Um.. the lack of EVIDENCE… maybe??” – kathy
oh, is that a problem for you?
you mean their book isnt enough?
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Can someone help a brother out? Where am I going wrong?
No. I don’t think the problem is with you. She asks for theories or examples and then when they are given she moves the goal posts to either the dead disciples or “evidence”. A theory and an example is neither of those things.
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kathy, you cant be serious…
if you are, please stop posting for the weekend. For real. Read through these threads and look at yourself. really.
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“OF COURSE my claims don’t fit with scripture — I think scripture is bogus! And I’m not obfuscating anything. ”
… you just obfuscated again, and then your comment continues to obfuscate.. that line was pure obfuscation Nate. You KNOW what I meant. Your claims that the writers of the Gospels believed what they were writing FAILS when you look at specific scripture. You might find a few examples where it works but the overwhelming majority could NOT have been written by someone who was “fooled”.. they were either lying or delusional.. ALL of them.
Shame on you Nate. And then, of course you recruit help.. like I’ve never seen that before either.. the Atheists do that all the time on Twitter.. when they get stuck they retweet your comments so you get bombarded by their fellow atheists/ followers.
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kathy, did you read your own link and look at the passages it gave?
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“Kathy, what’s your EVIDENCE that Mormonism is false?
Be specific, please.”
I’ve already addressed this.. it’s the same evidence that YOU use to dismiss it.
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Wow! I mean WOW! I can’t keep up, and it really seems like there’s no point.
Why argue about things like the author of Torah? It is oral tradition. This is the Torah that Moshe delivered to his people. The instructions for living. If Joshua took his Torah and wrote down the story later, how is it even relevant?
This argument is pointless.
Arch, I didn’t read what you wrote, but after Shabbat tomorrow evening I will.
Sorry for being cranky, these circles are giving me a headache. Have a good weekend everyone.
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ah, so it’s stupid then…
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I forgot to include “diversion tactic” in my last comment..
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your diversion tactics, kathy?
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kathy, i dont know about twitter, but you came to an active blog and joined in an active discussion, and now you’re complaining that nate has “recruited” others to attack you…
you really need to take a break and reread these threads and actually think about what you’ve been saying.
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“I’ve already addressed this.. it’s the same evidence that YOU use to dismiss it.” – kathy
oh, like the stuff we use to dismiss the bible…
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Btw, here are a couple of the points from the article Kathy referenced:
Psalm 110 is not an example of God talking to himself, but talking to the Messiah. And nothing in this passage says the messiah would be divine.
Psalm 45 is talking about a king, not God talking about himself. If he was, who would God’s companions be? Other gods?
And Hosea 1 is saying that God will deliver them himself, not by their own power.
I haven’t read the rest yet, but some of these are being stretched pretty badly.
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arch, better add “obfuscate” to the list
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“You (all) accuse me of rejecting evidence for the other side’s argument but when I ask for the evidence, you (all) never give it to me.. what does that tell you???”
What goes around, comes around –?
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“The writers / authors are testifying.. based on first hand accounts”
So you’re saying that Matthew (or pseudo-Matthew, as I prefer to call him) was “testifying” when he copied 60+% of his entire book, word for word, from Mark (pseudo-Mark) – right?
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REFRESH!
Words that Kathy Doesn’t Understand
1. Objectivity
2. Proof
3. Fact
4. Evidence
5. Compelling
6. Debate
7. Truth
8. Hearsay
9. Analogy
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