Uncategorized

Kathy Part 4

Nate

I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.

Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:

I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?

here’s all I’ve seen you provide:

1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.

2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.

3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.

4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.

5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.

About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.

Unknown's avatar

Published by Nate

1,038 thoughts on “Kathy Part 4”

  2. Kathy,

    The writers / authors are testifying.. based on first hand accounts.

    So, in the example I gave about the sleeping disciples, you are saying Matthew was one of the sleeping disciples since this would be the only way it could be a first-hand account, right? So … back to my question … how did he know what Jesus prayed if he was asleep? Of course, if he wasn’t one of the sleeping disciples, then the story is not based on a first hand account, which obliterates your claim.

    …they [Mormons] DON’T have the evidence to back up their beliefs

    Yes, the Mormons DO have evidence to back up their beliefs. It’s called the Book of Mormon. Not too unlike the book Christians use to back up their beliefs.

    “Just give … the specific text that you are making the claims about.”

    I gave the specific text … Matthew 26:36-56. Then you tried making an end run by saying that Jesus told them what he prayed. Who is double-dealing here?

    Like

  3. “Where am I going wrong?” – you’re going wrong, Nate, by thinking there’s a right way to do this. I don’t know if Kathy is being deliberately obtuse, or whether she simply has a comprehension problem.

    Like

  4. It’s OK, William, really it is – if any theists are watching, they’re getting a good lesson on what NOT to be. Kathy is doing more harm to theism than any of us ever could. she could deconvert a theist all by herself.

    Like

  5. “…you get bombarded by their fellow atheists/ followers” because everyone can see how baseless your comments are.

    Like

  6. “Arch, I didn’t read what you wrote, but after Shabbat tomorrow evening I will.” – Yup, Laurie, can’t do anything on Shabbat – g-d’ll get you for that! WhatEVER you do, do NOT pick up sticks! Aren’t you glad you and I don’t have those petty squabbles? I’m VERY understanding – I never hold it against you for being wrong —

    (Jackassery, my achin’ tokhes –!)

    Like

  7. “I forgot to include “diversion tactic” in my last comment..” – well, we certainly can’t leave that out, considering the degree of expertise you appear to have in that area.

    Like

  8. “you really need to take a break and reread these threads and actually think about what you’ve been saying.” – she’ll never do it, William. I’ll bet she prays everyday for the strength to go on. She would love to see Nate close this thread down while she’s still here – she’d be all over the net, telling everyone how she forced us to capitulate.

    Like

  9. Words that Kathy Doesn’t Understand

    1. Objectivity
    2. Proof
    3. Fact
    4. Evidence
    5. Compelling
    6. Debate
    7. Truth
    8. Hearsay
    9. Analogy
    10. Obfuscate

    Like

  10. Jumpin’ Jupiter! You’re still slugging it out?

    Some wise person once observed that the definition of insanity is: doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.

    Oh well… carry on!

    Like

  11. Why is this, Kathy?

    Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth – no wise men, no star in the east, no miracles. Historians have long puzzled over the “Silence of Paul” on the most basic biographical facts and teachings of Jesus. Paul fails to cite Jesus’ authority precisely when it would make his case. What’s more, he never calls the twelve apostles Jesus’ disciples; in fact, he never says Jesus HAD disciples – or a ministry, or did miracles, or gave teachings. He virtually refuses to disclose any other biographical detail, and the few cryptic hints he offers aren’t just vague, but contradict the gospels. The leaders of the early Christian movement in Jerusalem like Peter and James are supposedly Jesus’ own followers and family, but Paul dismisses them as nobodies and repeatedly opposes them for not being true Christians!
    Surprise! It’s Possible Jesus Never Existed

    Like

  13. “Some wise person once observed that the definition of insanity is: doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.”

    Ron, at no time, no place, no how, have I EVER even REMOTELY intimated that I was sane.

    Like

  14. “Why is this, Kathy?”

    I’ll tell you why, Kathy – because during Paul’s lifetime, the fairy tales invented by pseudo–Mark, pseudo-Matthew, pseudo-Luke and pseudo-John hadn’t yet been fabricated. A lot of work went into going back through the OT and finding passages that would appear to point to a Messiah, then warp them to fit into the life of Yeshua, who may, or may not have ever existed.

    Like

  15. Laura,

    In regards to what I shared with you before above

    I’m not rejecting God, or leaving Him. I am open to Gods interactions. Whether that be through scripture, interaction through prayer, interactions with people or/and the world around me.

    Or it may be in ways I have not even thought about. I believe its important to seek and be honest and open with what and Who is found.

    I want to look at reality in the face, I think its important. Get as close to an understanding of truth and reality as I can. Reality changes though, and I’d like to follow wherever it leads.

    Like

  17. These excerpts from your article, Ron, aptly describe what is going on here, both with us and with Kathy:

    Once something is added to your collection of beliefs, you protect it from harm. You do it instinctively and unconsciously when confronted with attitude-inconsistent information. Just as confirmation bias shields you when you actively seek information, the backfire effect defends you when the information seeks you, when it blindsides you. Coming or going, you stick to your beliefs instead of questioning them. When someone tries to correct you, tries to dilute your misconceptions, it backfires and strengthens them instead. Over time, the backfire effect helps make you less skeptical of those things which allow you to continue seeing your beliefs and attitudes as true and proper.

    Psychologists call stories like these narrative scripts, stories that tell you what you want to hear, stories which confirm your beliefs and give you permission to continue feeling as you already do.

    Contradictory evidence strengthens the position of the believer. It is seen as part of the conspiracy, and missing evidence is dismissed as part of the coverup.

    What should be evident from the studies on the backfire effect is you can never win an argument online. When you start to pull out facts and figures, hyperlinks and quotes, you are actually making the opponent feel as though they are even more sure of their position than before you started the debate. As they match your fervor, the same thing happens in your skull. The backfire effect pushes both of you deeper into your original beliefs.

    Like

  18. I found this interesting, from Dr. Tony Nugent, scholar of world religions. Dr. Nugent is a symbologist, an expert in ancient symbols. He taught at Seattle University for fifteen years in the Department of Theology and Religious Studies and is an ordained Presbyterian minister:

    …consider the idea that Mary is a virgin. The Greek writer of Matthew quotes Isaiah as saying: “a parthenos shall conceive and bear a child.” The Hebrew word in Isaiah is “almah,” which means simply “young woman.” But the Greek word parthenos can mean either a virgin or a young woman, and it got translated as “virgin.” Modern Bible translations have corrected this, but it is a central part of the Christmas story.

    It is no accident all New Testament books were written in Greek. In Hellenistic culture, when a man did something extraordinary there was the assumption that he did this because he was different, either divine or semi-divine. They would make up a story about how he came to be divine. Almost all Greek heroes were said to be born of a human woman and a god–even Alexander the Great, Augustus and Pythagoras.

    Jewish Christians, the first Christians, didn’t believe in the virgin birth. They believed that Joseph was the biological father of Jesus. Part of their Christology was “adoptionism”–they thought Jesus was adopted as the unique son of God at some time later in life. There were disagreements about when – Mark suggests the baptism, Paul suggests the resurrection.

    Over time, gentile Christianity replaced Jewish Christianity. There were Jewish-Roman Wars. The Jewish Christians were marginalized and oppressed. The Gentile branch became dominant. Eventually we get the gospel of John which pushes the sonship of Jesus back to the beginning of time. This writer is at the other end of the spectrum from the Jewish Christians.

    Like

  19. Has Kathy left us? I will weep (tears of joy!)

    Sun’s down, Laurie – all vampires and people of the Jewish persuasion, are free to come out —

    Like

  20. Kathy,

    Re – August 29, 2014 at 3:16 pm:

    “Kathy, what’s your EVIDENCE that Mormonism is false?

    Be specific, please.”

    I’ve already addressed this.. it’s the same evidence that YOU use to dismiss it.

    We apply those same standards of evidence to Christianity, which led to us rejecting it, too–and yet when we’ve shared specific instances of such evidence and reasoning, you cry foul.

    This seems like a pretty clear admission from you that you’re engaging in special pleading.

    Re – August 29, 2014 at 3:04 pm:

    I just wasted MORE time clicking on a random link at the bottom.. to Rata!

    I’m not sure what exactly you’re objecting to here. Sounds like you have a grudge against me or something.

    BTW, as I mentioned, I’m not too fond of “rata” as a nickname. (“Rat” is worse, though.)

    Like

  21. Nan,

    “…they [Mormons] DON’T have the evidence to back up their beliefs” ~me

    “Yes, the Mormons DO have evidence to back up their beliefs. It’s called the Book of Mormon. Not too unlike the book Christians use to back up their beliefs.”

    You are so silly Nan.. what have I been explaining all this time?? That the Bible has the evidence to back up it’s Truth.. MORE than any other book including the book of mormon .. catch up please.

    “Just give … the specific text that you are making the claims about.”

    “I gave the specific text … Matthew 26:36-56. Then you tried making an end run by saying that Jesus told them what he prayed. Who is double-dealing here?”

    sigh.. I never said that Jesus told them anything.. it was a question.. a possibility. You don’t know that’s not what happened, so deeming the story “false” is a “fail”.

    I don’t believe that Jesus told them what He said.. and fyi, I and probably everyone who reads that scripture wonders about how the writer can know what Jesus said and did during that time and others.. like what Jesus was thinking in some instances. You all continue to ignore that God is involved in all of this. He CAN give the writers this information… He created all of existence after all. It’s so funny how liberals, who claim to be open minded, are the most closed mined of all… the only time you are not is when it’s something that goes against God’s will.

    Like

  22. Why is this, Kathy?

    Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth – no wise men, no star in the east, no miracles. Historians have long puzzled over the “Silence of Paul” on the most basic biographical facts and teachings of Jesus. Paul fails to cite Jesus’ authority precisely when it would make his case. What’s more, he never calls the twelve apostles Jesus’ disciples; in fact, he never says Jesus HAD disciples – or a ministry, or did miracles, or gave teachings. He virtually refuses to disclose any other biographical detail, and the few cryptic hints he offers aren’t just vague, but contradict the gospels. The leaders of the early Christian movement in Jerusalem like Peter and James are supposedly Jesus’ own followers and family, but Paul dismisses them as nobodies and repeatedly opposes them for not being true Christians!

    That is because Paul was not and could not be one of the apostles, like he so frequently claimed. In fact, in Acts 2 Peter set forth specific requirements for the election of the new 12th apostle, that would replace Judas. They had to have seen Yahusha’s baptism, walked with him during his ministry, and witnessed his resurrection. Since Paul doesn’t meet any of those requirements, he can not be one of the 12. There were only 12. 12 apostles, 12 thrones, 12 gates, 12 pillars and 12 foundations. If Paul wasn’t one of the twelve, then he had to be one of the false apostles that Yahusha called liars in revelation 2.

    Sticks arch! Really? You are ridiculous.

    Like

  24. “the Bible has the evidence to backup it’s (sic) Truth.”

    This is what you choose to believe, but there is no more evidence (as several on this blog have pointed out) that the bible contains any more “truth” than the Book of Mormon.

    Yes, it was a question, but it was a leading question, and it most certainly was your way of deflecting your claim that the gospel writers were first-hand witnesses. As is your most recent comment that God provided the information about the prayer. You’re grasping at straws, Kathy.

    Like

  25. Arch,

    “Why is this, Kathy?

    Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth – no wise men, no star in the east, no miracles. Historians have long puzzled over the “Silence of Paul” on the most basic biographical facts and teachings of Jesus. Paul fails to cite Jesus’ authority precisely when it would make his case. What’s more, he never calls the twelve apostles Jesus’ disciples; in fact, he never says Jesus HAD disciples – or a ministry, or did miracles, or gave teachings. He virtually refuses to disclose any other biographical detail, and the few cryptic hints he offers aren’t just vague, but contradict the gospels. The leaders of the early Christian movement in Jerusalem like Peter and James are supposedly Jesus’ own followers and family, but Paul dismisses them as nobodies and repeatedly opposes them for not being true Christians!”

    A sad article Arch.. those 5 “reasons” are extremely weak and the article doesn’t even bother
    to mention all the reasons to believe Jesus DID exist.. very one sided, as is always the case with liberals/atheists.

    For example.. why does Paul *NEED* to mention the wise men, the virgin birth etc?? That wasn’t his agenda, his agenda was clear by what he did write… which was in regards to his ministry of teaching God’s grace and His will.

    And I’d like to know what “contradictions” of Paul that the author is referring to and also this..”Paul fails to cite Jesus’ authority precisely when it would make his case”… what case?? What scripture is this in reference to?

    Same for the remainder of the paragraph.. no details.. no specifics, just unsupported statements of “fact”.. this must be where you get all your information from since you do the exact same thing.. no wonder you never back anything up. You are so gullible.

    Like

Comments are closed.