I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
Kathy,
As much as I hate to agree with anything arch says, he is right.
Paul contradicts Yahusha when he says it is okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols, and Yahusha points this out in the letters to the 7 churches. He also contradicts on divorce, and circumcision, and several other things that aren’t coming to mind.
Let me know if you need verses, and I will post them tomorrow.
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Nan,
“the Bible has the evidence to backup it’s (sic) Truth.”
This is what you choose to believe, but there is no more evidence (as several on this blog have pointed out) that the bible contains any more “truth” than the Book of Mormon.”
Sorry Nan, you are factually wrong. Why don’t you list the evidence that supports the truth of the book of Mormon, and then I’ll do the same for the Bible.. then we can determine who is .. confused? in stubborn denial? just plain ignorant?
“Yes, it was a question, but it was a leading question, and it most certainly was your way of deflecting your claim that the gospel writers were first-hand witnesses. As is your most recent comment that God provided the information about the prayer. You’re grasping at straws, Kathy.”
And I never even stated that the Gospels were all first hand accounts.. post my words if you disagree. What I stated was that they were either first hand accounts or received from someone who was a witness.
So, stating that God could have given divine insight to the author is grasping at straws?? Even though He created the entire universe?
Don’t you think that if it was all a hoax, all made up, don’t you think the liars would have NOT written such an event? Which would give them away?
Again, an excellent example of lack of objectivity. Another example of the “open minded” liberal NOT able to think outside the box.
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Hi Laurie.. yes if you could post the verses, I’ll gladly read them.
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Hi Kathy,
I’m very surprised that you do not know the verses that Laurie are referring to, as though you have never read it before. I’m pretty sure that other atheists like Nate and Nan would immediately know what Laurie is referring to.
This leads me to believe that your bible knowledge is actually rather weak, and I am even suspecting that you have never done any in-depth bible study or read the holy book cover to cover.
Just a quick question – do you even know how many number of books are there in Old Testaments and New Testaments off hand? Checking google after reading this question does not count.
I will take your word for it if you tell me I am entirely wrong about you, and I will gladly apologize. But remember you are the one keep badgering about honesty, so the least I would expect from you would be to at least answer my question in truth.
Cheers
Powell
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“Sticks arch! Really? You are ridiculous.”
*This would be, for those Christians in the audience, the god who “so loved the world” – except for guys who pick up sticks on the Sabbath, or Shabbat, or Holy-crap-did-I-drank-the-WHOLE-thing-last-night?-Day, depending upon to which fairy tale you subscribe —
So Laurie – AM I ridiculous –? Then why is it you didn’t pick up any sticks yesterday? Hmmm?
(I’ve got jackassery I haven’t even used yet!)
RE: “Why is this, Kathy?
Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth – no wise men, no star in the east, no miracles.</em"
That, Kathy, is because pseudo-Mark, pseudo-Matthew and pseudo-Luke hadn't written their
fairy tales– gospels yet, so Paul was unaware of it. You’d have thought that Jesus – or whatever that bright light was calling itself – would have filled him in.LikeLike
RE: “A sad article Arch.” – I believe you’re responding to Laurie’s comment, Kathy – please try to keep us straight, I’m the good-looking one —
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RE: “As much as I hate to agree with anything arch says, he is right.” – Oh come now, Laurie – SURELY it must feel good to be on the side of the right at least ONCE in your life —
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“Hi Laurie.. yes if you could post the verses, I’ll gladly read them.” – Translation addendum: “…IF they agree with what she believes! If not, you’re SOL!“
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You need not quote Torah to me arch, I was very well aware of the passage you spoke about. You lack understanding, and because you don’t really care to know, you will never understand.
Kathy, acts 15:29 21:25, 1 Corinthians 8, Revelation 2:14, and 2:20. There are others of you need them.
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Hi Laurie,
While Arch may not care there could be others reading that really would be interested in your thoughts on the whole stick thing.
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Laurie,
I’m with Howie. Please, if we lack understanding in the matter, tell us what that means. My understanding was that it was because the man didn’t give God proper awe and reverence by doing what was considered work on Shabbat.
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@arch
When I was young, my family played pick-up sticks practically every weekend. But we never got stoned, because drugs and booze were strictly off limits in our Christian household.
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I started a post and it either got deleted by accident or its going to post, and this will be redundant.
Anyhow, this comes from parsha shelach. If you Google that, you will find many in-depth articles about this specific incident.
The Torah is not in chronological order. Most often stories that are placed beside each other are relevant to one another in some way. The stories told in this parashat are the stories of the spies, the mitzvot about tzitzit (fringes), and the story of the stick gatherer. At this point, Yahuah has freed them from captivity, protected them from the plagues, parted the red sea, and given them the commandments. This story is unique, and poses a lot of interesting questions. Why is this included in Torah? What was the mekoshesh “sin” , and why were they uncertain of the punishment? The commandments are clear on breaking the Sabbath.
This story is not about him, and his personal transgression, but about the people and how they dealt with the sin. I don’t have time to go into detail, but with further study you will see that this was not a one time event for him. The congregation had set watchmen, and he had been warned before. It is set with the spies and mitzvot about tzitzit, because they all pertained to the reason that this generation would not enter into the promised land.
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I posted links twice, but they didn’t come through?
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“You need not quote Torah to me arch, I was very well aware of the passage you spoke about.” – then you know that warning you not to pick up sticks on Shabbat, was the neighborly thing to do – you’re welcome!
“You lack understanding, and because you don’t really care to know, you will never understand.” ,,, about an invisible entity that created us in it’s own image, and lives beyond space and time – you fail to make it clear, Laurie, how that’s a bad thing —
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Actually, Ron, I was looking for a good wise-ass crack about “Pick-Up Sticks,” but couldn’t find one. Too late now, timing is everything.
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“…the reason that this generation would not enter into the promised land” – I’d always figured the 40-year wandering in the desert (for which there is no evidence, not even a tossed Spam can or a porkchop bone), was so that the older ones, with old Egyptian ways, would die off, leaving only those who had been freshly and firmly indoctrinated.
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“Sorry Nan, you are factually wrong. Why don’t you list the evidence that supports the truth of the book of Mormon, and then I’ll do the same for the Bible.. then we can determine who is .. confused? in stubborn denial? just plain ignorant?” – kATHY
kathy, that’s sort of the point. The mormons have as much evidence for their book as you do for yours – which is why we havent seen any yet. Nan isn’t a mormon, so she doesn’t think there’s good evidence for it either, she’s pointing out that mormons defend their faith in the same way you’re defending yours.
See?
so again, you say there’s good evidence for the bible’s truthfulness, then provide it.
but you should know that the below aren’t good or credible evidences:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
Things like a huge rock monument with god’s word inscribed on it, that is made of unknown elements, that can be dated back to the time of Moses or Abraham, would be something to consider.
Mayans or Sumerians or Babylonians or someone not in Israel recording events like the sun moving backwards or the sun standing still would be an impressive bit of evidence.
Roman historians recording the dead walking out of their graves at jesus’ death would be something too
and of course, pointing god and having him just say which is or is not his word would also be nice, i guess.
stuff like that.
Do you have any real, legitimate evidence? anything other than the 5 above bad points you keep making?
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“Nan isn’t a mormon, so she doesn’t think there’s good evidence for it either, she’s pointing out that mormons defend their faith in the same way you’re defending yours.”
I have repeatedly said, William, that Kathy is completely incapable of seeing ANYthing through the eyes of another.
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I know you’re right… again…. but I’m insane, you see, so I must carry on.
I’m not sure that i have ever been in a conversation with one so… touched by the gods as kathy…
In a way, i feel honored.
and somehow, her presence is more evidence for god than anything she’s actually presented…
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Laurie,
I did Google that. It took me to Chabad.org.
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/TorahReading.asp?AID=45586&p=7&showrashi=true
It doesn’t appear to say anything about him doing it before that Sabbath. In fact the commentary says they’d only observed Sabbath for one Sabbath before. This would have been the second Sabbath. I copied and pasted the pertinent scripture. Each verse is followed by Jewish commentary.
32. When the children of Israel were in the desert, they found a man gathering wood on the Sabbath day.
[When the children of Israel] were in the desert, they found: Scripture speaks disparagingly of Israel, for they had kept only one Sabbath, yet on the second one, this man came and desecrated it. — [Sifrei Shelach 52]
33. Those who found him gathering wood presented him before Moses and Aaron and before the entire congregation.
Those who found him gathering: [This redundant clause means to say that] they warned him, but he did not stop gathering even after they found him and warned him. — [Sanh. 90a, Sifrei Shelach 55]
This part I have a question about: Why does this redundant clause mean to say that they warned the man? That phrase doesn’t appear to say that, so there must me some oral tradition? Some other reading?
34. They put him under guard, since it was not specified what was to be done to him.
since it was not specified what was to be done to him: With which method he should be executed. But they did know that one who desecrates the Sabbath is put to death. — [Sifrei Shelach 57]
Can you tell me what Sanh. 90a and Sefrei Shehelach 55 are? I’m assuming they are supplements to Tarah? I tried Googling them but that wasn’t very fruitful. Are these commentaries coming from those references?
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Laurie,
I also didn’t see other articles about this there. Can you post some references?
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William – while I can’t speak to YOUR claims of insanity, I strongly suspect that your diagnosis of Kathy as being, “touched,” is likely spot on.
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Laurie,
I think 1 Corinthians 8 explains the context that shows Paul is not going against Jesus’ teachings. And I would think the same is true of the other seeming contradictions.
If you want to choose 1 or 2 specific examples, I’d be glad to debate those in more detail to show what I mean about context.
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“I’d be glad to debate* those in more detail to show what I mean about context.”
*(see list, below):
Words that Kathy Doesn’t Understand
1. Objectivity
2. Proof
3. Fact
4. Evidence
5. Compelling
6. Debate
7. Truth
8. Hearsay
9. Analogy
10. Obfuscate
11. Context?
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