I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
“How do you know you haven’t said that before?” – arch
whoa, and since I cant prove that I haven’t, it must be true. Thanks, Arch, now I know, and knowing is half the battle… the other half is declaring “liberal” and “nuh-uh.”
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“In other words, Christianity is just another one of those “choose your own adventure” religions. Everybody points to the same text but thinks it says something different.”
Sounds more like a Chinese take-out menu to me. – “One from column A, two from column B, and don’t forget the eggrolls….”
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there is a lot of confusing stuff in there. Like in matt 5 where jesus says that he didnt come to chnage the OT, and that until heaven and earth pass away,m nothing will be removed from the OT…
Yet in Matt 12 (I think) where jesus and his disciples are gathering corn on the sabbath (saturday), he’s essentially breaking the OT because Leviticus says not to gather manna on the sabbath, because gathering food is working and is breaking the law, the OT.
Then in acts, once the gentiles are saved, the apostles seem to be confused and declare that for now, they should only be taught to avoid meats offered to idols, from things strangled and from blood.
then of course herbrews says your justified by your faith and not your works while james says the opposite.
Some places say that baptism saves, while others say that confession saves, or that faith saves and then others say that only god’s grace saves you – is it all of the above or one or the other? I get that each person likely feels certain that they have the correct understanding, but with so many differing sects of Christianity, it’s far from clear.
and with all that, plus mountains more, it’s really just a compilation of men’s claims… so you really should just trust it without question.
Faith. It’s much more than belief, it’s belief devoid of reason, driven by fear and desperate hope.
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Reminds me of that quote,
“I’ve never seen faith move mountains, but I’ve seen what it can do to skyscrapers!”, or something like that. Fear and desperate hope. . . Yes, William – exactly.
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It’s magic, People – as soon as you hear that a belief system requires belief in magic, it’s time to say, “Talk to the hand –“
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Carmen,
“I mean it sincerely. Kathy, there is no such being – it’s in your fevered, fundamentalist imagination.”
You sound convinced.. can you share your references or evidence for this? Or is this just something YOU decided all on your own? I don’t even know you Carmen, yes you said you were/ are? a teacher.. but that doesn’t help at all, it actually makes it worse considering that so many today are liberals and horrible teachers because the unions protect them.. they don’t have to be good…. yet I’m supposed to take your word for something over the word of people who gave their lives to testify to their belief? Think about that Carmen.. seriously.. what do you base your belief on?? How can you be so sure??
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Laurie,
“Kathy,
There is no short answer to your question, I wish there was. You believe that Yahusha was the lamb of God, but you don’t understand what that means? The feasts are the complete story of redemption. When messiah was here the first time he fulfilled the spring feasts, Passover, unleavened bread, first fruits, and Pentecost. The fall feasts have not been fulfilled yet, which includes the day of atonement.”
I’m sorry Laurie, but I’m more confused now.. what do the feasts have to do with Christ’s sacrifice to pay for our sins? I’m not seeing the connection.. can you cite some NT passages that will explain this?
And I noticed that you still didn’t answer my question.. which again, still leaves me confused..
” why did Jesus die on the cross if we still have to atone for our sins?”
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Kathy, it’s called using the brain you have. For instance, just reading all the information that has been presented on these over-5000 comments – I have learned many, many facts that help to clarify my non-belief. There’s absolutely no way that I’m going to go on that merry-go-round with you about providing references/evidence. It’s obvious that, just like arch and others have suggested, you have no idea what this actually means.
There you go again, making baseless assertions that you accuse others of doing. “. . .so many (teachers) are liberals and horrible teachers because the unions protect them” That is a SUBJECTIVE opinion on your part – and yet you level that same criticism to discredit what I say. Can you see what you are doing here??
TAKE THE BLINDERS OFF. START THINKING.
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Nate,
“Kathy,
You believe the Mosaic law is still in effect, yet you don’t know when the Sabbath is? Like Portal said, it’s Saturday, not Sunday.”
It’s Sunday for Christians. It’s not about the day, it’s about the MEANING of taking a day of rest as God commanded. A day to worship Him.
“I also think you’re mistaken about what the Sabbath’s restrictions are. Jesus wasn’t saying it was totally cool to work on the Sabbath —..”
Some people have to work on Sunday in order to survive. You took no note of my point about necessity.
What you and Laurie fail to see is Jesus’ message. It’s not about the rigid rules.. it’s about what is in our hearts.
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Nate, cont..
“And Kathy, do you really think that “God inspires them sometimes, but lets them make mistakes at other times” is honestly the most logical explanation? ”
Yes, Nate, I do. And I’ve explained why I believe my answer is logical. You, on the other hand, have not explained what you think is more logical and why.. you just posed a question to me asking what I thought.. ??
“More and more, it’s clear that you’ve accepted your conclusion and are just bending the evidence to suit. Not a good way to find truth…”
I’m sorry.. but this just makes me laugh.
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Portal,
I don’t entirely agree with Laurie that Paul was a false prophet — he may or may not have been. I do believe, however, that his teachings are false. I go into considerable detail about Paul in my book, but here are some things I discovered.
— Did you know he was the first one to say that Jesus was the messiah/savior? Do you know why he said this?
— Did you know he was the one who came up with the doctrine of “original sin?”
— Did you know he felt his encounter with the blinding light and phantom voice on the road to Damascus gave him a higher standing with God than the original companions to Jesus — to the point that he wrote in Galatians they were “accursed?” (Galatians 1:6-9)
— Did you know he never met Jesus?
It’s important to remember whenever you read the New Testament that Paul’s writings pre-date the gospels. What this means is that much of what you read in M,M,.L, & J are directly from Paul’s teachings.
Kathy,
It’s very apparent from your questions to Laurie and your comment about the “Sabbath” that you have little to no concept of the history behind Christianity. You would do well to do some reading. There are tons of “non-liberal” books out there that discuss the relationship between the OT and the NT.
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Nate’s sensible, logical comment makes you laugh?
Kathy, you’re sunk. Which makes me want to cry.
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Carmen..
There are actual statistics that show that the quality of public education has consistently
declined over the years.. and at the same time, the unions have grown and so has liberal beliefs and indoctrination.
Now, AGAIN, what is your evidence for YOUR claim Carmen?
This is why I won’t ever stop railing against liberals.. your deliberate ignorance and arrogance never fails to show itself… and as I pointed out, it’s permeating society in the worst way.. with our children, who are the future leaders of our country(s).. it leaves little hope for future generations.
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Nan,
“Kathy,
It’s very apparent from your questions to Laurie and your comment about the “Sabbath” that you have little to no concept of the history behind Christianity. You would do well to do some reading. There are tons of “non-liberal” books out there that discuss the relationship between the OT and the NT.”
What exactly do I “need” to know that I don’t already? I know enough. I am interested in learning more so please feel free to share your knowledge.. but you seem confused about what Christianity means. It’s not about knowing the history.. it’s about knowing Jesus and what He did for us.
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“I know enough.”
After a comment like that, why would anyone take the time and effort to share their knowledge with you? Besides, it’s become very apparent throughout the course of these blog comments that you are not interested in “learning more.”
You say it’s about knowing Jesus and what he did. That’s Christian-ese for “Don’t confuse me with the facts.”
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Like I said in the last comment, Kathy, I will not get on that merry-go-round with you. It wouldn’t matter how many stats I came up with, or linked, or cited from, to prove that you’ve been misled – you’d dismiss them with your “liberal, lying, indoctrination” judgement.
It’s clear to everyone on this thread just who’s been indoctrinated, Kathy. Like I have said before, I feel very bad for you. The thing about the indoctrination you’ve been subjected to is this – your rote comments prove to everyone here that, not only WILL you not think for yourself, you CANNOT.
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“I know enough.”
After a comment like that, why would anyone take the time and effort to share their knowledge with you? Besides, it’s become very apparent throughout the course of these blog comments that you are not interested in “learning more.”
You say it’s about knowing Jesus and what he did. That’s Christian-ese for “Don’t confuse me with the facts.”
carmen
September 1, 2014 at 3:13 pm
Like I said in the last comment, Kathy, I will not get on that merry-go-round with you. It wouldn’t matter how many stats I came up with, or linked, or cited from, to prove that you’ve been misled – you’d dismiss them with your “liberal, lying, indoctrination” judgement.
It’s clear to everyone on this thread just who’s been indoctrinated, Kathy. Like I have said before, I feel very bad for you. The thing about the indoctrination you’ve been subjected to is this – your rote comments prove to everyone here that, not only WILL you not think for yourself, you CANNOT.
**********************************
Typical liberals with typical excuses. I asked, and instead of answers I got excuses. What else can I do?
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No, Kathy – not excuses. Statement of facts, based on your own words. Now THINK.
What else are WE to think?
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NO KATHY! You are and have been getting ANSWERS. Carmen is right. You just don’t want to accept them because they come from “liberals.” I personally have given you SCRIPTURE to research that will justify my comments. You ignore them. Others have provided links to articles that justify their beliefs. You ignore them. Time and time again you have been given the “evidence” you seek, but you dismiss it out-of-hand because it’s all from individuals who don’t believe as you do (i.e., “liberals”).
I truly hope Nate does not extend this fiasco any further. My head is sore from beating it against the wall.
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Kathy, you are young. I expect you are a lovely person. You have told us you have a young daughter, whom I’m sure you love. We can identify with you to a certain degree. Many people on this thread have been where you are now. They educated themselves, they studied, they looked at the information OBJECTIVELY. Then they made an intellectual decision about religion that boils down to one statement – MAN MADE GOD, not the other way ’round.
I think I am twice as old as you are. I am a teacher and I work with adolescents. The most important concept in public schools that the majority of professionals want to impart to their students is this: they want to produce critical thinkers. Why do you think that there are fewer and fewer ‘believers’ as time goes on? I like to think that one of the reasons is because we are doing a good job (in public schools, anyway) of making sure that students are equipped with skills to research, read, and think critically.
That’s what makes me sad to hear your glib retorts, your rote statements, and your poisoned outlook on humanity. I wish you would think critically about the things that most people on this thread have been trying to tell you – good, decent, kind, sensible, intelligent people who DO care about humanity.
I wish you well.
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Nan,
I asked you for the evidence of Mormonism that you claim is equal to Christianity..
I still haven’t gotten it.. nothing.
Carmen,
I’ve asked you for your evidence or references that supports your certainty that satan doesn’t
exist.
I still haven’t gotten it.. nothing.
I’ve accused both of you of coming up with excuses.. and what do you both do?
Come back with more excuses, dishonest obfuscation, and self serving lectures.
Carmen, “critical thinking” is exactly what I am doing.. I’ve ASKED you SPECIFIC questions.. because I am THINKING. It’s you who doesn’t want to think. You just want to make baseless ignorant judgments without any supportive evidence .. you just “know” it.
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Laurie,
“Kathy,
There is no short answer to your question, I wish there was. You believe that Yahusha was the lamb of God, but you don’t understand what that means? The feasts are the complete story of redemption. When messiah was here the first time he fulfilled the spring feasts, Passover, unleavened bread, first fruits, and Pentecost. The fall feasts have not been fulfilled yet, which includes the day of atonement.”
I’m sorry Laurie, but I’m more confused now.. what do the feasts have to do with Christ’s sacrifice to pay for our sins? I’m not seeing the connection.. can you cite some NT passages that will explain this?
And I noticed that you still didn’t answer my question.. which again, still leaves me confused..
” why did Jesus die on the cross if we still have to atone for our sins?”
“Behold the lamb of God” John 1
“My son, God will provide himself a lamb”
Gen 22
“The lamb who was slain” Revelation 5:12
The feasts in the old testament are prophetic. They point to messiah. There are 7 feasts, only four have been fulfilled. If they were all fulfilled at his first coming, he wouldn’t need to come again. You can’t understand the new testament if you don’t understand the old. I guess I am not really sure what is confusing you? You understand the connection between the Passover lamb and Messiah right? That is just one of the seven feasts. The second is unleavened bread and represents removing sin from our lives. The third is first fruits, and it symbolizes the final harvest, messiah being the first of resurrected. The fourth was Pentecost, our the outpouring of the holy spirit.
When he comes again the next three will happen. Trumpets, (a warning and call to repentance), Yom Kippur (the day of atonement), and finally tabernacle (when messiah will reign on earth for 1000 years, and tabernacle among us. If that didn’t help, and I completely missed your point, let me know!
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“It’s not about the rigid rules.. it’s about what is in our hearts.”
Question, Kathy – When in Exodus, your god told the non-existent Moses to tap a rock once and water would come out, but he tapped it twice instead, and as punishment, was not allowed, after doing everything he was told for over 40 alleged years, to cross the Jordan and enter the “Promised Land,” was that about what was in his heart, or was it the rigid rules?
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Words that Kathy Doesn’t Understand
1. Objectivity
2. Proof
3. Fact
4. Evidence
5. Compelling
6. Debate
7. Truth
8. Hearsay
9. Analogy
10. Obfuscate
11. Logical
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