I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
@Kathy, RE: “the unions have grown” – unions have grown because rich, Republican, conservative fat-cats have traditionally tried to take advantage of the little guy and get the most labor for the cheapest price they can. If these people would treat others fairly, and pay a fair wage, along with fair benefits, instead of the rich trying to get even richer, using poor man’s sweat, there would be no need for unions. Unions are the only way the little man has of controlling, to a degree, his working conditions, by uniting (union?) en masse. Someone’s been feeding you a load of crap, and you’ve been buying it by the shovelful! “Could I have some more crap, please –?”
LikeLike
“…you seem confused about what Christianity means. It’s not about knowing the history.. it’s about knowing Jesus and what He did for us”
Then you’re out of luck, as you only have the words of people who never met him.
LikeLike
I asked you for the evidence of Mormonism that you claim is equal to Christianity..
I still haven’t gotten it.. nothing. — Kathy
I did not claim that Mormonism is equal to Christianity. What I said was: “Yes, the Mormons DO have evidence to back up their beliefs. It’s called the Book of Mormon. Not too unlike the book Christians use to back up their beliefs.”
Please note: I did not claim their evidence was any better or worse than the bible. I simply made a statement that they use the Book of Mormon as evidence to back up their beliefs and you (Christians) use the bible as evidence to back up your beliefs.
Then you asked: “Why don’t you list the evidence that supports the truth of the book of Mormon, and then I’ll do the same for the Bible..”
Why should I do this? I’m not a Mormon. Once again, you’re missing the point.
BTW, definition of “critical thinking”: Thinking critically involves seeing things in an open-minded way and examining an idea or concept from as many angles as possible. This important skill allows people to look past their own views of the world and to better understand the opinions of others.
I have not seen any indications that you are looking past your own views to better understand the opinions of others.
And finally … even though this request was directed at Carmen, I would like to once again call attention to my book where I devote an entire chapter to Satan. Even though I know you won’t read it, I can assure you I provide extensive evidence and references that support his “non-existence.”
LikeLike
“Typical liberals with typical excuses. I asked, and instead of answers I got excuses. What else can I do?”
Oh, I don’t know – maybe you could go back and answer some of the dozens and dozens of questions we’ve asked you over the past two months, that you’ve ignored, or provide some of the evidence we’ve requested but never gotten – that should keep you busy for a while.
LikeLike
“I truly hope Nate does not extend this fiasco any further. My head is sore from beating it against the wall.”
So why, Nan, do you continue to read and respond? It’s like a train or car wreck, isn’t it – you know it’s going to be horrible and gruesome, but you just can’t turn your head away – you feel compelled to look – the rabbit and the snake phenomenon.
But it’s not the topic’s fault (or Nate’s – although he DID invite her –) – I’m just surprised that after two months, it still has so much steam left in it.
LikeLike
What can I say, Arch? Glutton for punishment.
It’s just that she says makes so many misleading statements, I feel compelled to respond.
BTW, I notice you’re still hanging around as well. 🙂
P.S. Need to add “critical thinking” to your list.
LikeLike
@Kathyh, RE: “You just want to make baseless ignorant judgments without any supportive evidence .. you just ‘know‘ it.”
Does this sound familiar to you:
”
I like to save little snippets like that, for future use – I’m actually getting quite a collection —
LikeLike
“The third is first fruits, and it symbolizes the final harvest, messiah being the first of resurrected.</em" – What about the Roman general's daughter, Laurie, and Lazarus – wouldn't that make messiah the third of resurrected?
LikeLike
Those people died again arch, and are still in the grave. You knew what I meant though didn’t you
LikeLike
“BTW, I notice you’re still hanging around as well. 🙂” – Yeah, but I’M not complaining! I’m in hog heaven!
And that feast Laurie mentioned, of the Passover Lamb – a little mint jelly, maybe a baked potato, a garden salad, and a cold beer, now THAT sounds like a feast I’d find it hard to walk away from!
Sorry, Laurie – I can only hold off the jackassery for so long —
LikeLike
“Those people died again arch, and are still in the grave.” – Nobody said them was the rules —
Besides, we really don’t know, do we? I mean, just because that little girl and Lazarus weren’t important enough to write a book about, do we reallyknow they didn’t fly up to heaven too?
“You knew what I meant though didn’t you” – (sheepishly hangs head, digs toe in the dirt, hands behind back, drawls): Yes ma’am, I did —
LikeLike
Speaking of crucifictions, Mesopotamia originally ran from Kuwait, on the Persian Gulf, through Iraq, all the way to southern Turkey, and was first settled by the Sumerians, who, after 4,000 peaceful years, were conquered by the Akkadians, who were later conquered by the Amurrites, then the Babylonians, then the Persians, then the Greeks.
From the Sumerians, comes this story, thousands of years BCE:
LikeLike
“When in Exodus, your god told the non-existent Moses to tap a rock once and water would come out, but he tapped it twice instead, and as punishment, was not allowed, after doing everything he was told for over 40 alleged years, to cross the Jordan and enter the “Promised Land,” was that about what was in his heart, or was it the rigid rules?”
Arch, I always thought that was a command the Bible God used to try and mess with Old Man Moses. He did tell him the first time to take his rod and strike the rock. Then the 2nd time Bible God again told Moses to take his rod and speak to the rock.
Heck, I would probably have made the same mistake !
Bible God definitely liked playing “Gottcha”
LikeLike
“Bible God definitely liked playing ‘Gottcha’” – he seemed to do that a lot.
LikeLike
Goodnight, Kathy, wherever you are —
LikeLike
“Goodnight, Kathy, wherever you are –”
Now you sound like Jimmy Durante saying good night to Mrs Calabash. I wonder how many people even know what I’m talking about. LOL
LikeLike
Actually, that’s exactly what I was going for!
LikeLike
Arch,
““It’s not about the rigid rules.. it’s about what is in our hearts.”
Question, Kathy – When in Exodus, your god told the non-existent Moses to tap a rock once and water would come out, but he tapped it twice instead, and as punishment, was not allowed, after doing everything he was told for over 40 alleged years, to cross the Jordan and enter the “Promised Land,” was that about what was in his heart, or was it the rigid rules?”
In the OT, BEFORE Jesus, it WAS about the rigid rules. The OT was about the importance of obeying God. Jesus took the focus away from the rules and put the focus on God’s love demonstrated by Jesus’ sacrifice, and our love for Him because of His sacrifice.
LikeLike
Laurie,
Sorry to keep asking so many questions but I still don’t understand..
““Behold the lamb of God” John 1
“My son, God will provide himself a lamb”
Gen 22
“The lamb who was slain” Revelation 5:12”
Is this supposed to answer why we still have to atone for our sins even though Jesus died on the cross to pay for our sins?
“The feasts in the old testament are prophetic. They point to messiah. ”
Is there Biblical scripture that supports this belief? Is there scripture that explains this??
All we have to understand in the NT is that God’s Son died to pay for our sins. It makes no sense that we must continue to atone for our sins.. there’s nothing in existence that can pay that price except Christ, and He did.
LikeLike
Nan,
“And finally … even though this request was directed at Carmen, I would like to once again call attention to my book where I devote an entire chapter to Satan. Even though I know you won’t read it, I can assure you I provide extensive evidence and references that support his “non-existence.”
Can you give the most compelling evidence and reference for satan’s non existence here??
I’ll gladly read it.
LikeLike
oh and Nan… you don’t have to be a Mormon to give the evidence they have to support their claims.
The excuses continue.. shocking..
“I did not claim that Mormonism is equal to Christianity. What I said was: “Yes, the Mormons DO have evidence to back up their beliefs. It’s called the Book of Mormon. Not too unlike the book Christians use to back up their beliefs.”
Then what exactly was your point if it wasn’t to claim comparable evidence? Please explain, because you aren’t making any sense.
LikeLike
I see the confusion now, I apologize.☺
When John said ” behold the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world” he was referencing the sacrificial system of the old testament, and basically saying that the innocent lamb that was used on the altar was a representation of messiah and the sacrifice he would make.
When he was crucified on the 14th of Nissan, that was the Passover, and a fulfillment of the first feasts. The day of atonement is the last feasts of the seven and has yet to be completed. This will take place when he comes again. I am not saying that you need to atone for your sins. What I am saying is that the feasts of YHWH are a picture of the plan of salvation, and that is not completed yet. If you study it, you will understand the whole of scriptures more clearly.
LikeLike
Here is another example that might help you see the thematic connections.
When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden and realized their nakedness, they tried to make clothes out of fig leaves to cover themselves. But they couldn’t cover their sins so YHWH made them garments out of skin. This was the first sacrifice.
In Egypt before the death angel killed all the first born, the Israelites took the blood of a lamb and put it on their lintel and door posts. Then the angel passed over them and they lived. Likewise the blood of Yahusha makes the judgement for our sins Passover us.
The scapegoat in Torah had all the sins of the congregation prayed over it, and then was taken away from the camp never to return, symbolizing the sins being removed. This is the same as messiah taking your sins away as far as the east is from the west. Palms 103
LikeLike
Laurie, I’m not going to understand anything unless you reference the Bible.. if it’s not supported in the Bible, I can’t / won’t agree with your claims.
You claim that Paul is a false prophet but you haven’t given any compelling evidence for that.. his devotion and suffering are also powerful testimony to him and to the Truth of Christianity. I don’t know what your evidence is to support your claims against him. You did give examples of seeming contradictions between Paul and Jesus but when I explain that you aren’t applying the correct context, you don’t respond with an argument that defends your chosen context. Context is key.. as much as the Biblical scripture is key.. if it’s not backed up by scripture.. in the correct context, which I’ll gladly debate any challenges about the accepted/ traditional context, it’s not worth the time required to “understand” it.
“Laurie
September 1, 2014 at 12:01 am
Kathy,
Messiah said that there was no new law, and that everything is the same as it was in the beginning.
There are no sacrifices because there is no temple.
According to the prophets, messiah will come and rebuild the temple and he will be a king and priest. He will offer sacrifices, to include the sin offering.”
Again, I ask, why is a sin offering necessary when Jesus paid the price for our sins??
LikeLike
I did give you scriptures Kathy. They may have been chapters and not individual scriptures but you want context right? When I say prophets, I am referring to books in your bible like Jeremiah, Isaiah, ezekiel, Hosea etc, which I gave you chapters to read.
I did not take Paul out of context. He said it was okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols. He even said you could sit in the temple of an idol, and eat meat sacrificed to that idol as long as your conscience is clear. But according to the true apostles and messiah himself, that is false.
LikeLike