I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
Laurie, here is an article that explains what I believe is the correct context..
does it make sense to you?
http://www.gotquestions.org/food-sacrificed-idols.html
Also, I’m still confused about your position on Jesus’ sacrifice to pay for our sins.
It’s THE whole point of the Bible but from your responses, I have no idea what you are
trying to convince me of concerning this. I keep having to ask this same question.
“Again, I ask, why is a sin offering necessary when Jesus paid the price for our sins??
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Just to elaborate.. Mormons claim that Jesus paid for our sins, just like I think you are claiming.. BUT, they ALSO claim that good works are ALSO necessary. This is a fundamental contradiction. Mormonism is a dangerous cult because of this lie and others. It tries to devalue what Jesus did for us. I’m trying to determine/ clarify YOUR exact views on this.
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“Jesus took the focus away from the rules and put the focus on God’s love demonstrated by Jesus’ sacrifice, and our love for Him because of His sacrifice.”
It always amazes me, how theists will warp all bounds of reality, to make it fit their image.
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“Can you give the most compelling evidence and reference for satan’s non existence here??”
How about you provide evidence that he/she/it DOES exist? I’ll gladly read it.
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arch,
Here’s a quote from my morning reading which address the puzzling ‘mind gymnastics’ you speak about –
“There is nothing more telling of a person’s fundamental lack of perspective and humility than an insistence that if they cannot reconcile their beliefs with reality, than reality itself must be wrong.”
– Anonymous
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“Then what exactly was your point if it wasn’t to claim comparable evidence? Please explain, because you aren’t making any sense.”
Her point was that each fairy tale comes with its own set of alleged “evidence”. Clearly, very little makes sense to the dense.
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“If you study it, you will understand the whole of scriptures more clearly.”
You really haven’t gotten to know our Kathy very well yet, have you? If you don’t tell her what to understand, she won’t understand it – even then, it mustn’t contradict that which she’s ALREADY been given to understand. Understand?
You’d really have to be into robotics to get the full picture.
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“This is the same as messiah taking your sins away as far as the east is from the west. Palms 103” – Soo – that’s his Kryptonite? He can only remove sins up to 12,500 miles? After that, on a 25,000-mile planet, you’re headed east again – of course, an omniscient god would know that —
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Words that Kathy Doesn’t Understand
1. Objectivity
2. Proof
3. Fact
4. Evidence
5. Compelling
6. Debate
7. Truth
8. Hearsay
9. Analogy
10. Obfuscate
11. Logical
12. Context
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“I did give you scriptures Kathy. They may have been chapters and not individual scriptures but you want context right? When I say prophets, I am referring to books in your bible like Jeremiah, Isaiah, ezekiel, Hosea etc, which I gave you chapters to read.”
By the frustration in your written “voice,” I can see that the light is beginning to dawn – Kathy looks to be spoon-fed her knowledge from a Gerber’s jar – you can’t give her a T-bone and expect her to know what to do with it. “A chapter? You want me to read a whole CHAPTER??!”
I feel your pain, Laurie, I feel your pain.
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RE: http://www.gotquestions.org/food-sacrificed-idols.html:
“In the letter to the church of Thyatira, Jesus rebukes them for tolerating a prophetess who ‘misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols’. (Revelation 2:20).</em"
Actually, Revelation doesn't say Yeshua wrote ANYthing – as the son of a carpenter, he would most likely have been illiterate, if he ever existed – in fact, the hallucination that John speaks in Revelation of having, of a man with a double-edged sword coming out of his mouth and brass feet, told John to write these things, though it must be really hard to talk with a double-edged sword in your mouth.
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Carmen – I see that was written by the same guy who wrote Matthew, Mark, Luke and John!
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This statement says what we already knew:
Laurie, I’m not going to understand anything unless you reference the Bible.. if it’s not supported in the Bible, I can’t / won’t agree with your claims.
If whatever we provide as evidence isn’t supported in the Bible Kathy won’t agree with it. If it contradicts her precious scripture it can’t possible be right. Even if there is a mountain of evidence proving that it is. Evolution is one such example.
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Is this supposed to answer why we still have to atone for our sins even though Jesus died on the cross to pay for our sins?
No, you really don’t understand, Kathy. We do still have to atone/answer for/pay a price for our sins regardless of Jesus’ sacrifice according even to your theology. What the hell is Hell for if not for that?
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“What you and Laurie fail to see is Jesus’ message. It’s not about the rigid rules.. it’s about what is in our hearts.” – kathy
whew, that’s a relief. My heart and my mind tell me all this bible stuff is a bunch of hooey.
and if this is how you felt about it, why have you been making such a huge production?
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“What the hell is Hell for if not for that?” – she was up most of the night, but when she comes back on, Ruth, she’s likely going to say, “for those who don’t believe in him.”
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she was up most of the night, but when she comes back on, Ruth, she’s likely going to say, “for those who don’t believe in him.”
Exactly. Because the wages of sin is still death. One must pay the price for their sin.
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Hi Kathy,
in response to some of your points, I have cut and paste what I plan on replying to, and have labeled them to help ensure you don’t overlook them.
A)
“There are actual statistics that show that the quality of public education has consistently
declined over the years.. and at the same time, the unions have grown and so has liberal beliefs and indoctrination.” – Kathy
What does this have to do with the bible’s validity?
And what do you mean? What do you mean by “quality” and are you speaking about the USA as a whole or only speaking about certain states in regard to both your union and quality remarks?
You’re still confusing me with how you use “liberal.” Before you have said that a liberal was someone who went against your god, but now it looks like you’re using somewhat correctly by tying it into politics. And do you think all non-believers are liberals and that all believers are not?
B)
“but you seem confused about what Christianity means. It’s not about knowing the history.. it’s about knowing Jesus and what He did for us.” – Kathy
I think you have a fractured understanding. If it does not also include the knowledge of the history and the scriptures, then what does 2Tim 2:15, matt22:29 (jesus here says its error to not know), John 14:15 (love and obedience through knowledge are the same), and 1 Thess 5:21?
C)
“I asked you for the evidence of Mormonism that you claim is equal to Christianity..I still haven’t gotten it.. nothing.” – Kathy
Kathy, I provided at least three links on mormonism, but now you’re just going to ignore them so you can chastise nan?
D)
“I’ve asked you for your evidence or references that supports your certainty that satan doesn’t
exist.I still haven’t gotten it.. nothing.” – Kathy
Look, there he isn’t.
If you have compelling evidence for his existence, I’;; gladly read it – but if you just say the bible, then I’m just gonna ask for your evidence to support that, and if you “martyrs” again… I swear…
E)
“I’ve accused both of you of coming up with excuses.. and what do you both do? Come back with more excuses, dishonest obfuscation, and self serving lectures.” – Kathy
You describing yourself or someone else?
F)
“Carmen, “critical thinking” is exactly what I am doing.. I’ve ASKED you SPECIFIC questions.. because I am THINKING. It’s you who doesn’t want to think. You just want to make baseless ignorant judgments without any supportive evidence .. you just “know” it.” – Kathy
Kathy – come on, here. Is that what Carmen is doing or what you have been doing? Be honest.
G)
“You claim that Paul is a false prophet but you haven’t given any compelling evidence for that.. his devotion and suffering are also powerful testimony to him and to the Truth of Christianity.” – Kathy
Kathy, again, anyone’s devotion is merely evidence of their belief, and anyone’s suffering is only evidence for their devotion – neither have anything to do with validating what they believe it. This is stupid. You get this kindergarten concept with people of other religions… are you being intentionally moronic?
H)
“Mormons claim that Jesus paid for our sins, just like I think you are claiming.. BUT, they ALSO claim that good works are ALSO necessary. This is a fundamental contradiction.” – Kathy
Read the book of James. “Justified by works, and not by faith only.”
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William,
“When I use a word,” Kathy said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”
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“One must pay the price for their sin.” – Ruth, this is like arguing which brand of boots Santa Claus wears, and yes, I get the irony of me defending what likely is Kathy’s position, but isn’t it logical (I don’t know if I can get through this bat-barf) that the wages are paid only for the believers? And that “hell” is reserved for the Non’s?
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Kathy said, “Mormons claim that Jesus paid for our sins, just like I think you are claiming..BUT, they ALSO claim that good works are ALSO necessary. This is a fundamental contradiction. ”
Kathy, are you saying this is an error in Mormonism or was the Apostle James a Mormon ?
James 2:14-26New Living Translation (NLT)
Faith without Good Deeds Is Dead
14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.
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Ruth, this is like arguing which brand of boots Santa Claus wears, and yes, I get the irony of me defending what likely is Kathy’s position, but isn’t it logical (I don’t know if I can get through this bat-barf) that the wages are paid only for the believers? And that “hell” is reserved for the Non’s?
Believers of what, though, arch? Kathy’s belief? Laurie’s belief? Catholic’s belief? Jewish belief? Reformed theology? Calvinism? Arminianism? Do you get a purgatory where you can change your mind?
I once believed that what is likely Kathy’s position was the logical position. The more I’ve read about Universalism the more that seems logical to me as well. Interpretations vary wildly on this topic.
By the way, Santa wears boots that the elves cobble themselves. They’re straight from his very own workshop.
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““There are actual statistics that show that the quality of public education has consistently
declined over the years..” – This is true, William, and you can expect even more degradation, as some states try to sneak Creationism into the curriculum and remove evolution – in those states, the quality of education is lower than in the rest of the US and most all of Western Europe. Graduates of those schools will be far less likely to find anything other than blue-collar jobs, and certainly won’t be able to compete with Europeans in the World Market.
And the Texas State Board of Education is trying its damnedest to insert Christian philosophies into school books across the nation, which it can do, as Texas orders more schoolbooks than any other state, and since book publishers want to save money, they print their books according to whatever the Texas Board comes up with, unless a state specifically opts out – so far, only California and one other state has, as it’s more expensive to do otherwise. The books are only revised every ten years, so a student will go from First through Tenth Grades (or Third through Graduation) on the Texas system before further revisions – that means an entire generation of US school kids will grow up not knowing the importance of Thomas Jefferson, for example, because references to him as a Founding Father have been replaced by another FF who was a Calvinist.
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“By the way, Santa wears boots that the elves cobble themselves. They’re straight from his very own workshop.” – well I’m glad we cleared THAT up!
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Kathy,
Can you give the most compelling evidence and reference for satan’s non existence here?? I’ll gladly read it.
Kathy, the “compelling evidence” I discovered cannot be stated in one or two sentences — that’s why I devoted an entire chapter to this subject! As for references, I would be willing to list a few of the books and/or websites I researched, but only if you will read them and respond — preferably on my http://escapefromreligion.wordpress.com blog as I don’t want to take up Nate’s blog space. Are you willing to do that? (I will even make a page just for our “discussion.”)
,,, you don’t have to be a Mormon to give the evidence they have to support their claims.
Kathy, please! I can’t believe how you continue to miss the point. Once again … all I said was “Yes, the Mormons DO have evidence to back up their beliefs. It’s called the Book of Mormon. Not too unlike the book Christians use to back up their beliefs.” My POINT is that THEY believe their book offers evidence. YOU believe the bible offers evidence. I never claimed that their evidence was better, worse, or comparable. One more time … THEY believe their book provides evidence; YOU believe the bible provides evidence. Period. End of story.
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