I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
Guys, it’s so clear that Christianity is better than Mormonism.
For instance:
Mormons claim that a lost tribe of Israelites sailed across the Atlantic and founded America. Do they have archaeological evidence of this? Of course not.
Christians, on the other hand, claim that Moses led the Children of Israel out of Egyptian bondage and wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. Do they have evidence of this?
Of course they do— actually, um… we’ll have to get back to you on that one.Mormons say Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from mystical golden plates. But can they present those golden plates as evidence? Nope.
Christians, however, say that Moses was given the law on stone tablets. As evidence,
they are able to— crap! Seriously?! We don’t have those either?As you can see, the differences are striking.
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““There are actual statistics that show that the quality of public education has consistently
declined over the years..” – This is true, William” – arch
yeah, but how is it measured. Standardized test scores? a lot of this stuff was altered under bush – and as you have pointed out, texas tends to rule the text books… and kathy wants to say it’s a liberal problem.
But besides that, private schools typically have wealthier parents, who either have more time, or just devote more time to ensuring their kids do their homework, and go to school, etc.
there are also more public schools. Some are really good and do very well. Some have bad teachers and some have good ones. Not all mandate that a teacher join the union, but teacher unions have made it hard to fire teachers because often parents want to blame the teacher because their kid is a lazy student and just isnt prepared – kathy seems to be focusing on the flip side, that in protecting the good teachers, there are some bad ones that get saved as well.
but seriously, how does kathy mean “quality?” test scores? in competition with other nations? in religious curriculum? in math and science?
regardless, it is clear that kathy didnt go to a public school, because her reasoning and comprehension skills indicate that she has been sheltered from the world at large and has been spoon fed christian evangelical dogma and specific doctrine apologetics for a long, long time…
to her it doesnt matter what the truth or evidence says, because she only will consider what is in the bible – what wacky religious institutions push as being “objective.”
“Laurie, I’m not going to understand anything unless you reference the Bible.. if it’s not supported in the Bible, I can’t / won’t agree with your claims.” – kathy
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Arch,
“By the frustration in your written “voice,” I can see that the light is beginning to dawn – Kathy looks to be spoon-fed her knowledge from a Gerber’s jar ”
As if you have a clue what she’s talking about. If anyone does know please feel free to explain it.. because I don’t get it.
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Ruth,
“If whatever we provide as evidence isn’t supported in the Bible Kathy won’t agree with it. If it contradicts her precious scripture it can’t possible be right. Even if there is a mountain of evidence proving that it is. Evolution is one such example.”
How does evolution contradict the Bible Ruth?
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Kathy,
Please read these passages. They are all from Yahusha (jesus) and are about eternal life.
Luke 10:25-28
The Parable of the Good Samaritan
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’[a] and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”[b]
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
Matthew 19:16-22
Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good[a] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?[b] No one is good but One, that is, God.[c] But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’[d] and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”[e]
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth.[f] What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
Matthew 25:14-46
The Parable of the Talents
14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[a] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him,[b] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
1 John 2:1-7New King James Version (NKJV)
2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
The Test of Knowing Him
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
7 Brethren,[a] I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.[b]
As for your question on atonement, please read my previous comments again. I answered this question already.
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“How does evolution contradict the Bible Ruth?” kathy
i guess because genesis 1 and 2 say that god formed them, and brought them out of either the water or the earth on specific days…
do you think evolution and the bible are compatible?
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Kathy, you don’t “get” what Laurie says because (1) you have not read the OT, and (2) you have not read books and other resources that explain what she’s talking about.
Question: do you even have a clue on what “messiah” means to the Jewish people?
(Just as an added note, I discuss some of this in my book.)
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yeah, kathy, I’d have to agree with nan. Laurie could be better understood if you knew your bible better, but also if you tried to think about things from differing perspectives.
I dont agree with laurie, but I find her perspective fascinating and new.
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Does anyone understand what I am talking about with the feasts? I know that most of you don’t believe, but do you understand? Kathy doesn’t, and I’ll admit I am not really the teacher type.
I just don’t want to keep going around in circles. If you don’t read Torah, how can you expect to understand?
Kathy,
Do you realize that when Yahusha said” I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life” that these are all hebraic idioms for Torah. That means that he said he was Torah, and nobody gets to the Father except through him (Torah).
You can not understand the new testament, apart from the old. They go together.
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@Arch & William,
In regards to my teacher union comments.. Arch, while you are correct that unions do serve a good purpose.. sometimes.. in many cases where govt. is involved, they are destroying our free market system. Teachers are an excellent example. Our poor children are STUCK with bad teachers because they are protected by the unions. And that’s the way liberals want to keep it. Because the unions support their liberal views.
William, I’m speaking about the USA as a whole.. we are way down on the list and have been for quite a while. Liberals are literally “dumbing down” this country, not only in our schools but in are govt. Just look at Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi, Biden and Obama.. it’s pathetic what is happing to this country.. and scary that any of these people are /could be the leader of our country.
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My phone is so slow, I got my answer. Sorry about that, I am glad that someone can see what I’m talking about even if you don’t agree!
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Laurie, why are you avoiding my question about Jesus’ sacrifice? I like debating and learning from others but it’s pointless if honesty and openness are missing. That’s why I keep begging for honest objectivity on this blog.
Clearly you adhere to teachings that the Bible does not support.. that’s fine, I’d love to debate those differences. But as it stands, your evasion and incomplete answers only cause me to question your sincerity and your intent.
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Does anyone understand what I am talking about with the feasts? I know that most of you don’t believe, but do you understand? Kathy doesn’t, and I’ll admit I am not really the teacher type.
Yes, Laurie. While I don’t believe, I do understand what you’re talking about. At my former church the Minister of Music was born Jewish. He gave a lovely sermon that spanned a few Sundays about the feasts, their meanings, and how Jesus related to them. It was fascinating.
I agree with you that unless you understand Judaism you can’t possibly understand Messiah’s role. Christianity is supposed to be a fulfillment of the OT. I don’t know how you can possibly understand Christianity if you don’t understand that.
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Kathy, I dont like unions either, as i am not a liberal, but i dont despise them either. I think people should be free to chose whether they unite or not. But in regard to schools, again, the teacher unions began and continue primarily to protect teachers from getting fired over a lazy student underachieving. Public teachers are stuck with the students they get, weather good or bad.
should a chef get fired if his apple pie tasted like crap when all he was given were rotten apples, or the should the restaurant owner realize that a chef can only do so much with rotten food?
“William, I’m speaking about the USA as a whole.. we are way down on the list and have been for quite a while. Liberals are literally “dumbing down” this country, not only in our schools but in are govt. Just look at Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi, Biden and Obama.. it’s pathetic what is happing to this country.. and scary that any of these people are /could be the leader of our country.” – kathy
The USA is down. But it was down before Obama and Biden took office. although I’m an independent and didnt vote for either of the major party candidates, I think you’re mistaken about which side has done more damage in regard to education.
I thought this was interesting, what i skimmed of it anyways…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/11/05/are-private-schools-better-than-public-schools-new-book-says-no/
but again, this has what to do with the bible’s credentials?
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Laurie, I think Kathy’s biggest problem is that she doesn’t understand anything about the Torah.
Kathy, a good place to start would be here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah. Follow the links to the things you don’t understand to get a better understanding of the Jewish religion. Also read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism.
Further, your comment to Laurie — Clearly you adhere to teachings that the Bible does not support. is out of line. Just because you don’t understand her way of looking at Jesus and his sacrifice does NOT mean she doesn’t adhere to the bible. Read the links above and LEARN SOMETHING!
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Evidences for Mormonism and Christianity compared.
Mormonism:
We have detailed biographical information (including exact dates of birth and death) not only for Joseph Smith and his descendants, but also his parents, grandparents and even some of his great-grandparents. We also have portraits, contemporaneous reports from hundreds of non-Mormon sources, and of course, his own writings. We have detailed biographical information about the witnesses to those plates including their signed testimonies.
For Jesus: none of the above.
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U.S. Education Spending and Performance vs. The World [INFOGRAPHIC]
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well, ron, for jesus, we have not only one genealogy, but two. How do you like them confusing apples?
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How does evolution contradict the Bible Ruth?
Kathy, you’ve already said several times that us liberals/atheists believe we came from the primordial soup – so to speak – and have mocked it as many times. You don’t think evolution contradicts the Bible?
The very first place I would say it contradicts the Bible would be that, according to scripture the wages of sin was death. While evolution may require life, it also requires death. There was much death and suffering for evolution to occur.
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Unfortunately, I have to leave for awhile (Dr’s appt) so I’ll have to catch up later today. I’m sure I’ll need to devote at least an hour. 😉
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Kathy,
I have not quoted anything from any source out side the bible. The only difference between you and I, is that you believe because of Paul that your saved by grace apart from the works of the law, and do you don’t need to read the law (Torah). I choose to follow the messiah (who never said your saved by grace) and his law.
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Nan,
“Kathy, a good place to start would be here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah. Follow the links to the things you don’t understand to get a better understanding of the Jewish religion. Also read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism.
Further, your comment to Laurie — Clearly you adhere to teachings that the Bible does not support. is out of line. Just because you don’t understand her way of looking at Jesus and his sacrifice does NOT mean she doesn’t adhere to the bible. Read the links above and LEARN SOMETHING!”
Nan, I looked at the Wiki def. Did you notice that in the 1st paragraph it states several times
“it COULD mean..”. I’m TRYING to learn.. I’m trying to get clarification.
I’m not denying Jewish teachings and it’s importance to the NT.. I’m just asking for the supportive scripture for what she is claiming. The Bible is what Christians adhere to and believe in.. if it’s not supported in the Bible, it will be heavily scrutinized… because of so many heretic teachings that have come out of Judaism and Christianity. And I have good reason to be cautious.. just because you don’t understand, that doesn’t mean my wariness isn’t justified.
And AGAIN, to you and Laurie.. what is it that I need to learn that I don’t already know??
I know that Jesus died to pay for our sins because of His love for us. What else do I “need” to know??
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Kathy,
I answered your question about Yahusha’s sacrifice. Was there something you would like me to explain further?
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“but seriously, how does kathy mean ‘quality?’ test scores? in competition with other nations? in religious curriculum? in math and science?”
Haven’t you figured it out yet, William? Kathy doesn’t know ANYthing that isn’t in the Bible, or on some Right-Wing Christian website —
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Yes, I still don’t understand the need for “sin” sacrifices you’ve referred to. And also my question up above.
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