I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
Kathy,
I hate to sound short with you, but these are the same books in my bible as yours. Any passage I quoted, came from these and no where else
Old Testament
Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1 Samuel
2 Samuel
1 Kings
2 Kings
1 Chronicles
2 Chronicles
Ezra
Nehemiah
Esther
Job
Psalm
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Solomon
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi
New Testament
Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
Hebrews
James
1 Peter
2 Peter
1 John
2 John
3 John
Jude
Revelation
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IT’S ALIVE!!
“If anyone does know please feel free to explain it.. because I don’t get it.” – that could be said of SO many subjects —
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kathy, think you’ll get to “B” – “H”?
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I noticed that Kathy didn’t link to any study on these test scores. If she would provide some kind of links maybe we might agree. Can you provide some evidence of what precisely you’re talking about, Kathy.
For the record, I think unions serve a purpose. I think they overstep their bounds many times, but they aren’t evil. I don’t mind teacher’s unions. I disagree with the concept of tenure that the public schools in Georgia use.
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Laurie,
“I have not quoted anything from any source out side the bible. The only difference between you and I, is that you believe because of Paul that your saved by grace apart from the works of the law, and do you don’t need to read the law (Torah). I choose to follow the messiah (who never said your saved by grace) and his law.”
ok, finally, this is what I wanted to know.. it took some effort, but, thank you.
Jesus said He is the Way and the Life.. no one enters Heaven except by Him.
That means that no amount of good works will save you.. and it also means that we
can enter Heaven without doing any good works.. that Jesus’ sacrifice has the power to
do this. It’s about Jesus and what He did for us.. it’s not about the Torah/ the law.
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“As for your question on atonement, please read my previous comments again. I answered this question already.” – how many times have each of us uttered those same words?
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Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6
Jesus allegedly did say this. But what in that saying indicates that nothing else is required?
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“Jesus said He is the Way and the Life.. no one enters Heaven except by Him.
That means that no amount of good works will save you.. and it also means that we
can enter Heaven without doing any good works.. that Jesus’ sacrifice has the power to
do this. It’s about Jesus and what He did for us.. it’s not about the Torah/ the law.” – kathy
so please explain James and John 14:15 and John 15:14 and Matthew 7:21
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Ruth,
It means the law that Laurie holds so tightly to is ultimately insignificant.
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17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?[b] No one is good but One, that is, God.[c] But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Does anyone kinda, sorta, from this verse, get the idea that god and Jesus are NOT the same person –?
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As long as there is still sin, there is a need for the sacrifice. Did you read ezekiel 40-46 like I showed you before? Our the passage from Hosea?
The passages that I posted from the prophets are all relating to the time of the messiah and his 1000 year reign.
It is here that we learn he will build the third temple, and be king and priest. It is also here that it is prophecied that he will offer gifts to the Father and sacrifices. The wicked will still be here, they will beat their weapons into plow shares, and it will be a time of peace. If they do not come up for the feast of tabernacle, they will have no rain. Etc etc etc.
This is the prophecy about the new covenant that Paul insinuates has already come. This had not happened yet, and will not happen until the 1000 years are over, and YHWH brings about the restoration of all things. Then there will be no more sacrifice.
31 o“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make pa new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when qI took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, rthough I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 sFor this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: sI will put my law within them, and I will write it ton their hearts. uAnd I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ vfor they shall all know me, wfrom the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For xI will forgive their iniquity, and yI will remember their sin no more.”
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well that’s because they’re different, but also the same. There’s 3 of them, but only 1.
Do I have to spell it all out in crayon, arch?
I rest my case… right kathy? these guys are crazy.
mormonism and islam are false, and that’s how we know they’re not true, and since the bible is from god, we know it’s true. it’s called LOGIC people.
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William,
“so please explain James and John 14:15 and John 15:14 and Matthew 7:21”
All of those passages are about following the laws because of our love for Jesus.. NOT following the law so we can enter Heaven. It’s about trusting in Him.. NOT the law.
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What! Kathy, did you completely ignore me when I quoted the verse where messiah said he was the way truth and life? You have no idea what this means!
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Kathy:
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It means the law that Laurie holds so tightly to is ultimately insignificant.
How are you getting that out of that scripture? Laurie has not said that works will save anyone apart from Messiah. She is merely explaining to you that Jesus never intended to abolish the law. Following the law alone is not sufficient, but nowhere does Jesus indicate he intended for the law to become obsolete. In fact, Jesus also allegedly said that he had not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Unless you understand the law you cannot understand how Messiah might fulfill it. The feasts are part of that law. The sacrifices are part of that law. It is strictly a Pauline teaching that does away with most of the Mitzvot. Why? Because he primarily was teaching to a gentile congregation which wouldn’t have been familiar with Mitzvot.
The gentiles have always been included in God’s plan the need for substitutionary atonement of sins is unnecessary.
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“Laurie
September 2, 2014 at 1:24 pm
What! Kathy, did you completely ignore me when I quoted the verse where messiah said he was the way truth and life? You have no idea what this means!”
So, please answer.. can we enter Heaven without following the law?
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“Kathy,
Do you realize that when Yahusha said” I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life” that these are all hebraic idioms for Torah. That means that he said he was Torah, and nobody gets to the Father except through him (Torah).
You can not understand the new testament, apart from the old. They go together.”
Here, incase you missed it.
Yes arch, the messiah is not the same person as YHWH
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Well that completely depends, doesn’t it?
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
If you don’t know the rest of this verse you should look it up.
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“All of those passages are about following the laws because of our love for Jesus.. NOT following the law so we can enter Heaven. It’s about trusting in Him.. NOT the law.” – kathy
Matt 7:21 – “not everyone who says unto me ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he does the will of my father which is in heaven.”
jesus was quoted as saying different.
If you’re still having trouble, Matt 22:34-40 says that the greatest commandment is to the love the lord your god. Jesus (the guy you think is the lord your god) said that if you loved him (which he said you should do) then you should also do what he commanded.
Commands arent typically options, and if you must love god and if you’d follow his commandments if you love god, then you must keep his commandments.
And james says that you are justified by your works.
and besides, if no one has to do anything, then everyone would go to heaven. and if god doesnt judge by merit, he’s just arbitrarily choosing which the opposite of justice.
It may help if you read the passages.
Do you actually read your bible or simply read devotionals?
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In case you didn’t know this, Kathy, gentiles have never been expected to follow all the 613 laws of the Mitzvot, Gentiles have ever only been expected to keep the 7 Noahic Commandments.
http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm#Noah
That is a minimum, mind you. Gentiles could observer any or all of the laws. This was just the minimum for them to be in favor with Yahweh.
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Ruth,
“Following the law alone is not sufficient, but nowhere does Jesus indicate he intended for the law to become obsolete. In fact, Jesus also allegedly said that he had not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. ”
I never said the law was to become obsolete, I realize what Jesus said about the law.
Jesus IS fulfillment of law, just as Paul has explained.
We follow the law out of love for Jesus and what He did for us.. at that point the law has taken on a different role in regards to salvation. It’s still important, but it is NOT the key to salvation.
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If you don’t know the rest of this verse you should look it up.
I have pointed that out to Kathy many, many times.
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kathy,
what about the passages that state baptism saves like Romans 6, Acts2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Gal 3:27, etc?
What about those that say confession saves?
If the bible says that they’re part of salvation, why do you say that they arent?
And keep in mind, James says “you are justified by your works,” and “faith without works is dead.”
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Kathy, what about James ???
James 2:14-26New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
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