I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
Jesus IS fulfillment of law, just as Paul has explained
Am I given to understand that you believe that the purpose of the law is to show how woefully inadequate we are in keeping it and the need for substituionary atonement? That fulfillment of the law means that we no longer are required to keep the law?
You only see this from a Pauline perspective. You really should do some research on why the Jews reject the notion that salvation is through Jesus. You should research why they don’t believe Jesus is Messiah. Hint: (It isn’t [simply] because they strictly expected an earthly Messiah who would come and wage war to establish their Kingdom forever)
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We follow the law out of love for Jesus and what He did for us.. at that point the law has taken on a different role in regards to salvation.
That is what you have been spoonfed, but that isn’t exactly what those scriptures say.
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Ruth, she doesn’t even completely see it through a Pauline perspective, since she still thinks it’s important to observe the Sabbath day (though she doesn’t really understand what that entails).
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Hi Kathy,
in response to some of your points, I have cut and paste what I plan on replying to, and have labeled them to help ensure you don’t overlook them.
A)
“There are actual statistics that show that the quality of public education has consistently
declined over the years.. and at the same time, the unions have grown and so has liberal beliefs and indoctrination.” – Kathy
What does this have to do with the bible’s validity?
And what do you mean? What do you mean by “quality” and are you speaking about the USA as a whole or only speaking about certain states in regard to both your union and quality remarks?
You’re still confusing me with how you use “liberal.” Before you have said that a liberal was someone who went against your god, but now it looks like you’re using somewhat correctly by tying it into politics. And do you think all non-believers are liberals and that all believers are not?
B)
“but you seem confused about what Christianity means. It’s not about knowing the history.. it’s about knowing Jesus and what He did for us.” – Kathy
I think you have a fractured understanding. If it does not also include the knowledge of the history and the scriptures, then what does 2Tim 2:15, matt22:29 (jesus here says its error to not know), John 14:15 (love and obedience through knowledge are the same), and 1 Thess 5:21?
C)
“I asked you for the evidence of Mormonism that you claim is equal to Christianity..I still haven’t gotten it.. nothing.” – Kathy
Kathy, I provided at least three links on mormonism, but now you’re just going to ignore them so you can chastise nan?
D)
“I’ve asked you for your evidence or references that supports your certainty that satan doesn’t
exist.I still haven’t gotten it.. nothing.” – Kathy
Look, there he isn’t.
If you have compelling evidence for his existence, I’;; gladly read it – but if you just say the bible, then I’m just gonna ask for your evidence to support that, and if you “martyrs” again… I swear…
E)
“I’ve accused both of you of coming up with excuses.. and what do you both do? Come back with more excuses, dishonest obfuscation, and self serving lectures.” – Kathy
You describing yourself or someone else?
F)
“Carmen, “critical thinking” is exactly what I am doing.. I’ve ASKED you SPECIFIC questions.. because I am THINKING. It’s you who doesn’t want to think. You just want to make baseless ignorant judgments without any supportive evidence .. you just “know” it.” – Kathy
Kathy – come on, here. Is that what Carmen is doing or what you have been doing? Be honest.
G)
“You claim that Paul is a false prophet but you haven’t given any compelling evidence for that.. his devotion and suffering are also powerful testimony to him and to the Truth of Christianity.” – Kathy
Kathy, again, anyone’s devotion is merely evidence of their belief, and anyone’s suffering is only evidence for their devotion – neither have anything to do with validating what they believe it. This is stupid. You get this kindergarten concept with people of other religions… are you being intentionally moronic?
H)
“Mormons claim that Jesus paid for our sins, just like I think you are claiming.. BUT, they ALSO claim that good works are ALSO necessary. This is a fundamental contradiction.” – Kathy
Read the book of James. “Justified by works, and not by faith only.”
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Nate,
You’re right. But the Church teaches that good believers ought to go to Church on Sunday and give their tithes and offerings [part of that OT law that was fulfilled already, eh?]
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Laurie,
“Do you realize that when Yahusha said” I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life” that these are all hebraic idioms for Torah. That means that he said he was Torah, and nobody gets to the Father except through him (Torah).”
Laurie, PLEASE quote the Biblical verses that support this. I don’t even know what you are trying to state that Jesus was “Torah”.
“You can not understand the new testament, apart from the old. They go together.”
Again, what do I “NEED” to understand apart from what the NT teaches us.. that trust in Jesus’ sacrifice to pay for our sins is the only way to enter Heaven?? I disagree with you. I know all I NEED to know.
“Here, incase you missed it.”
I guess I missed it again?
What is “it”?
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Indeed. 🙂
Sadly, they have Kathy at that perfect intersection of understanding just enough to buy into it completely, but not knowing quite enough to question it.
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Kathy, here’s a link that explains more fully what Laurie is saying about “the way, the truth, and the life” all representing “Torah.”
http://sounddoctrineministries.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/torah-the-way-the-truth-and-the-life/
You won’t find a passage that explicitly says that that phrase should be understood in this way, but it’s easy to see why some people think it does. And it’s a good bet that many Jews would have thought of it if they ever heard Jesus say something along these lines.
But before you cry foul because there’s no verse that explicitly says this, you should stop and realize that there are no verses that explicitly say half the points you’ve made so far. Your understanding of the Sabbath Day isn’t found in scripture, nor is your understanding of the relationship of works/faith/grace. You’re working from a particular understanding that you’ve come to over the years that has as much to do with your church environment as it does with anything the Bible actually says. The real question is can you learn how to separate your understanding of the Bible from the Bible itself? If so, then you might actually have a shot at uncovering the truth of it.
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“Does anyone understand what I am talking about with the feasts?” – Well of COURSE I do – Mensa, remember? However your explanation depends on Moishe (“Moses” means “baby” in ancient Egyptian, as in, Moishe Ruth!), about whose existence there is no evidence.
I’m sorry that you’re dealing with a doorknob, but that doesn’t release me from reason, and allow me to believe in magic – let’s just say it’s the Mensa in me —
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yeah, jesus said that that the person who gets in heaven is the person who does what the father tells them to do (matt 7:21), but what what does he know?
I’m with you kathy. i dont trust him either.
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“William, I’m speaking about the USA as a whole.. we are way down on the list and have been for quite a while. Liberals are literally “dumbing down” this country, not only in our schools but in are govt. Just look at Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi, Biden and Obama.. it’s pathetic what is happing to this country.. and scary that any of these people are /could be the leader of our country."
What Right-Wing Christian website did you get THAT from, Kathy? We KNOW it's not an original thought, we've all found you to be incapable of those.
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Nate,
“Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
— Col 2:16-17”
Nate, thanks for posting that. I haven’t fully researched this issue.. I just know it’s a point of contention. And I had decided to dedicate Sunday to focusing on God. Knowing that Jesus had taught that that law was no longer a strict requirement.
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Knowing that Jesus had taught that that law was no longer a strict requirement.
Again, where did Jesus teach this? Scripture, please.
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“Knowing that Jesus had taught that that law was no longer a strict requirement.” – kathy
where did he do that?
Matt 5:18 seems to show that it still very much a requirement, while Paul says otherwise.
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Nate,
” Your understanding of the Sabbath Day isn’t found in scripture, nor is your understanding of the relationship of works/faith/grace. You’re working from a particular understanding that you’ve come to over the years that has as much to do with your church environment as it does with anything the Bible actually says.”
Nate, that’s just not true.. my understandings ARE based on scripture. This is a contextual issue, like so many issues are between believers and those who seek to disprove the Bible.
Salvation by faith and not works is clear in the NT.. there are no passages that argue against that. But , yes, there are some passages that you/ atheists take out of context.
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I and others have listed several passages. please show how we’ve taken them out of context. I dont think we did.
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“I am glad that someone can see what I’m talking about even if you don’t agree!” did you really think I would? 🙂
Are you at all familiar with Sargon, the last great Akkadian king of Mesopotamia? He lived a thousand years before the alleged birth of your Moishe. His mother was a temple prostitute (an honorable profession, in those days, and one some of my best friends still employ), but motherhood was frowned upon among temple prostitutes, and so his mother built a little basket of reeds, sealed it with bitumin (tar), placed her newborn baby in it, and sailed it down the Euphrates, where little Sargon was found, and long-story-short, grew up to rule Mesopotamia. Amazing how many legends the Jews plagiarized for Torah – the Garden of Eden (Edin), and The Epic of Gilgamesh’s flood, as well as the Tower of Bable – I could go on —
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forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere but somewhere up in the thread Nate did say he believes that the Jesus fellow did exist. I need a small clarification; is it the Jesus described in the gospels or one scholars have modeled? A preacher with followers or is it son of a virgin, a Jew in every sense of the word who was later killed according to the law and is claimed to have resurrected?
I have a question for Kathy; let us pretend that the bible is inspired. Somewhere in Paul’s letters he gives I think three uses of scripture, what do you think the author of that part of OT where Lot shags his daughters had has his end?
Laura did ask if proof or evidence has to be scientific- here science taken broadly as Nietzsche uses in Gay Science-; am interested in knowing what other test of proof she employs?
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Kathy,
It just depends on how you view it. If you think Paul was inspired, then he goes to great pains to say that the Old Law was done away with. He argues that Jesus fulfilled it with his sacrifice, and so no one is bound by it any longer. That’s why he says circumcision is no big deal, the Sabbath is no big deal, festivals, sacrifices, etc. All of it has been finished and served its purpose. Read the entire books of Hebrews, Galatians, and Colossians for the details.
Laurie says that Paul was a false prophet, and she makes some decent points in that regard. It’s definitely true that a number of his writings conflict with the gospels and some books like James, as has been pointed out.
But here’s the most troubling part of this: you have built your life around your beliefs, and you’ve said some pretty caustic things about those who disagree. But it’s apparent that there are some big doctrinal issues that you are unaware of. I realize that a number of Christians might view them as “small things,” but does God waste his time writing about small things? If you’re going to base your entire life (and your daughter’s) on these beliefs, shouldn’t you have a really solid handle on just what they are? Don’t you believe your very soul (and your daughter’s) is at stake???
I appreciate your voicing your thanks just now. And I know that this comment may seem like it’s scolding you — and I guess it is. But are finally seeing that you have some real homework to do? Are you also troubled that there are aspects of your beliefs that Laurie and a bunch of non-believers seem more aware of than you do? Or do you see this conversation totally differently?
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“17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”
This does NOT mean works are REQUIRED to be saved. It means that faith isn’t TRUE
faith if it is not accompanied by works. Jesus’ death on the cross is / CAN BE enough by itself
for us to enter Heaven, IF our faith, no matter how old it is, is TRUE FAITH.
It’s our FAITH that saves us.. not our works. To claim works are required is to DIMINISH what Jesus did on the cross.. it is a claim that what He did was NOT enough. This is blasphemy. It’s the worst thing someone can do.. and that’s what Mormonism does, hence it’s correct designation as a satanic cult.. and that would be true of any teaching that tries to deny what Jesus had done.
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“Clearly you adhere to teachings that the Bible does not support.. that’s fine, I’d love to debate those differences. But as it stands, your evasion and incomplete answers only cause me to question your sincerity and your intent.”
Doesn’t EVERYone love a good catfight? Any chance you ladies could change to bikinis/thongs, video it and upload it to YouTube? See, I have this collection —
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Trust me, Mak, it would be hard for me to remain an atheist if I thought Jesus was born of a virgin and came back to life. 😉
No, I think the Jesus of the gospels was modeled on a traveling apocalyptic preacher. He might have been known as a healer, but so was Sathya Sai Baba. I’m skeptical of both.
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And while still on it, since Kathy seems to insist the authors of the gospels were eyewitnesses to the stories they made along the way- is there any gospel where we have one witness to the death or resurrection of the star character?
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Kathy, you’re mangling James 2.
If faith without works isn’t true faith, then works are absolutely required.
Look, anytime there’s a raffle, it’s usually a requirement that you be at the site of the raffle to claim your prize. Does being there in person mean that you’ve earned the prize? Or did any winners of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? actually earn their winnings?
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Though we disagree, Laurie, I have to say that you have put a lot of work into responding to Kathy – I did that too, in the beginning.
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