I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
Nate,
” But are finally seeing that you have some real homework to do? Are you also troubled that there are aspects of your beliefs that Laurie and a bunch of non-believers seem more aware of than you do? Or do you see this conversation totally differently?”
Again, I will ask, what do I NEED to know that I don’t already know Nate??
How exactly can I go wrong by giving all the credit for my salvation to Jesus? How am I jeopardizing mine and my daughter’s salvation Nate?
Please answer these questions.
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Ah Nate, then that is solved and in that case we are on the same page, a preacher those have been many, there are still such being produced left right and centre.
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Kathy,
you saId,
“This does NOT mean works are REQUIRED to be saved. It means that faith isn’t TRUE
faith if it is not accompanied by works. Jesus’ death on the cross is / CAN BE enough by itself
for us to enter Heaven, IF our faith, no matter how old it is, is TRUE FAITH.
It’s our FAITH that saves us.. not our works. To claim works are required is to DIMINISH what Jesus did on the cross.. it is a claim that what He did was NOT enough. This is blasphemy. It’s the worst thing someone can do.. and that’s what Mormonism does, hence it’s correct designation as a satanic cult.. and that would be true of any teaching that tries to deny what Jesus had done.”
You’ve omitted James 2:24, “…justified by works…” You havent address matthew 7:21 “…he who DOES the will of my father…” and you’re ignoring James 2:19 “the devils believe and tremble…” which indicates that belief dont cut it.
But how do you know that faith saves? Is it because the bible says so? the bible also says that baptism saves 1 pet 3:21. The bible also says that confession saves Rom 10:10. So if you’re going by the NT, it looks like faith, baptism, grace, confession, etc all save.
Are you following the bible or parts of the bible? do you think it’s all inspired or partly? if part, then how do you decide which parts?
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“Kathy, you’re mangling James 2.
This does NOT mean works are REQUIRED to be saved. It means that faith isn’t TRUE
faith if it is not accompanied by works.
If faith without works isn’t true faith, then works are absolutely required.”
Nate, I’ve already debated this issue thoroughly with Mormons.. it’s been awhile but it’s not me who is wrong, it’s you.
When you combine this passage with others.. the meaning is clear.
Again, it’s a contextual issue, and that’s where you hang a lot of your arguments.. but as I’ve pointed out over and over, you lack objectivity/ honesty when it comes down to it. And you CAN NOT find the correct context without HONEST objectivity. It just can’t be done. As you and others here have shown over and over.
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Holy crap, Kathy! How do you not see this?!
Putting your faith in Jesus is all fine and good as long as you’re doing it correctly. But if Laurie’s right, then your soul may be in jeopardy. Or what if Christianity is false, and Islam is true? Then you’re totally screwed.
There are obvious holes in your understanding. Yet you believe Muslims are hell-bound, even though many of them are exactly like you — they know “enough” to be sure that Muhammad was Allah’s true prophet, and they’re following Allah’s commands. But if Islam is false, then they’re wasting their time, and their souls might be in jeopardy. You clearly see that problem for Muslims — how do you miss it for yourself???
This is a very basic thing. It’s something that is easy to see if you just once put yourself in someone else’s shoes. Apparently, you’ve never done that. Empathy must be a foreign concept to you.
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“Laurie, I think Kathy’s biggest problem is that she doesn’t understand anything about the Torah.”
But Nan, as Laurie herself is pointing out, the books involved are the same ones that Kathy will find in her King Jaime —
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Nate, I’ve already debated this issue thoroughly with Mormons.. it’s been awhile but it’s not me who is wrong, it’s you.
That may be so, but Nate isn’t one of those you’ve debated it thoroughly with. You can’t just say “you’re wrong”. You also have to provide evidence as to why. We’re not just taking you’re word for it…just like you aren’t just taking ours for it.
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Apparently Kathy DOES think that a game show contestant is earning their winnings.
Wish I could find a “job” like that…
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Some Christian, in the past here, said something about needing to have an understanding of original languages to be able to understand Torah(OT). And without the proper understanding of Torah(OT) it would be suspect as to whether a person was actually a proper Christian or not. I vaguely remember being told something along those lines.
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To elaborate further.. if a person CLAIMS to have faith, and they don’t do good works, then as the verse says, their faith is “dead”.. it CAN’T be true faith. That’s the meaning of the passage.
If as you/ atheists/ Mormons insist, that good works are required, then we would not owe our salvation solely to Jesus.. we would be taking credit also, due to our good works. But here’s the thing.. NO AMOUNT of good works is enough to save us. It does nothing to atone for our sins. ONLY Jesus’ sacrifice is enough to save us. And it’s His love and sacrifice that COMPELLS us to do good works… meaning our faith is true.. NOT “dead”. Our good works are a RESULT.. NOT a requirement.
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“what is it that I need to learn that I don’t already know?? ” – VOLUMES!
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Kathy,
“How exactly can I go wrong by giving all the credit for my salvation to Jesus? How am I jeopardizing mine and my daughter’s salvation Nate?
Please answer these questions.” – kathy
I’d like to chime in as well, since you’re answering my questions. Doesnt 2Tim 2:15 say to study the scriptures? Doesnt jesus chastise others saying, “ye do err not knowing the scriptures…”
and proverbs 18:13 says that it is folly to respond to something you’re not educated on. I’m paraphrasing, so read the verse.
So how are you jeopardizing your salvation? well, for starters, if you dont know the scriptures, jesus says you’re erring, and solomon says you’re foolish for arguing over things you’re not educated in.
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Nate,
“Putting your faith in Jesus is all fine and good as long as you’re doing it correctly.”
“as long as I’m doing it correctly”.. the only thing we need to do correctly is to honestly
repent of our sins and trust in Jesus’ and what He did to save us by paying the debt of our sins. A debt we cannot pay ourselves no matter how many good works we do.
” But if Laurie’s right, then your soul may be in jeopardy. Or what if Christianity is false, and Islam is true? Then you’re totally screwed.”
That’s why honest objectivity is so important, Nate.
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“Yes, I still don’t understand the need for “sin” sacrifices you’ve referred to. And also my question up above.”
She wants YOU to chase it, Laurie, so she won’t have to – she’s pulled that stunt on us many, MANY times – her time, according to her, is too “valuable” to waste on mundane tasks that any peon could accomplish! Fetch, Laurie!
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13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
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Let’s discuss this scripture Kathy
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hey kathy,
“To elaborate further.. if a person CLAIMS to have faith, and they don’t do good works, then as the verse says, their faith is “dead”.. it CAN’T be true faith. That’s the meaning of the passage.
If as you/ atheists/ Mormons insist, that good works are required, then we would not owe our salvation solely to Jesus.. we would be taking credit also, due to our good works. But here’s the thing.. NO AMOUNT of good works is enough to save us. It does nothing to atone for our sins. ONLY Jesus’ sacrifice is enough to save us. And it’s His love and sacrifice that COMPELLS us to do good works… meaning our faith is true.. NOT “dead”. Our good works are a RESULT.. NOT a requirement.” kathy
earlier nate made an analogy about a raffle. If you were smart, you’d at least reconcile all the books of the NT this way:
Jesus, through his grace died for us and gave us a shot at salvation. We couldnt earn this gift, but it was freely given. but as with many free gifts, they still dont simply fall in your lap. You may at the least have to get up, drive somewhere and pick up the gift.
Did standing up, or driving, or picking up the gift and carrying it, “earn” you that gift? did you deserve that gift then? or, despite what you did actually do, is it that it still didn’t merit the gift as earnings, therefore it was still a gift?
and again, if the bible says that faith saves and that’s good enough for you, then why isnt it good enough for you when the bible says that baptism saves or that confession saves?
and if nothing must be done, then why wont everyone go to heaven?
and if having to do anything means that gods grace is negated, then how could you say that belief is required? YOu have said it was a choice. So does your choice and belief earn your salvation, or is it merely a condition to receive the gift?
But really, I feel silly telling you how to be a better christian when it’s all nonsense anyways.
Are you okay?
do you read your bible or just devotionals?
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Let’s start by looking at verses 22, and 23.
These people are Christians.
They are casting out demons and doing good works.
The word used iniquity used here has two meanings.
The first is lawless.
Obviously these are not people walking around sinning, they believe they have served God well, and should be let in.
The second definition is negating the law.
These people may have cast out demons in Jesus name, but they also taught the law was done away with.
The false prophets, that are ravenous wolves, is prophetic, and he is calling to mind genesis 49. The wolf is in sheep’s clothing, meaning it looks like it is of God, but is not. This represents Paul and his anti Torah teachings.
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“That’s why honest objectivity is so important, Nate.” – kathy
kathy, knowing is only half the battle.
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I’ll be back later, this is really preventing me from being productive.
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Arch,
Use that big brain of yours while I’m gone, and pretend to be me will ya! I’m sure you know what I’m going to say before I say it anyways! You will be graded on this assignment. Any good debater can argue from both sides wether they agree or not! Don’t let me down mensa!
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Laura? you still lurking about, silently? anything to add?
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William,
“I’d like to chime in as well, since you’re answering my questions. Doesnt 2Tim 2:15 say to study the scriptures? Doesnt jesus chastise others saying, “ye do err not knowing the scriptures…”
William, I’ve never said we shouldn’t learn scripture and learn as much as we can.. what I’ve been saying is that it’s not a NEED in order to be saved.
I still have no idea why I “need” to know about the fulfillment of the feasts and all the other Jewish teachings.. I don’t need to know that to understand and accept what Jesus has done for me.
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“I still have no idea why I “need” to know about the fulfillment of the feasts and all the other Jewish teachings.. I don’t need to know that to understand and accept what Jesus has done for me.” – kathy
I think the point, kathy, is that if you studied more, you may understand better. At the very least you’d be better equipped to discuss the subject.
Jesus said he does the will of that father will enter the kingdom of heaven, matt 7:21. 2 Tim 2:15 paul says to study in order to show yourself approved before god.
the question is, how can you even be a bible christian without consistent and in depth study? How could you know what the father wills without study, since he aint talking to anybody?
and besides, how do i know what you dont know? You claim to follow the bible. I’d assume you’d know what’s in it. Granted, it’s a big confusing book, but how can you have so many firm and staunch opinions on something you clearly havent even studied in depth?
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Laurie, which of those verses supports your claim that it’s about them doing away with the law?
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