I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
Laurie cont..
Also, I see nothing in the def. of “iniquity” that means “negating the law”.
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William,
“I think the point, kathy, is that if you studied more, you may understand better. At the very least you’d be better equipped to discuss the subject.”
Understand WHAT William? I don’t deny that it would be good to know as much as possible about the TRUTH of the Bible.. but all I *need* to understand, I already DO!
As I said recently, Jesus simplified it perfectly. So EVERYONE could understand and be saved.. there is no need to know about the “fulfillment of the feasts” etc. That’s not what saves us. And this is THE whole point of the Bible.. God’s grace.. not God’s rules. We follow His rules out of love, not fear.
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In Greek, anomia is a feminine noun, related to the adjective a-nomos. Nomos is the Greek word to identify the Law or Torah, i.e., the Five Books of Moses. (Strong’s #3551.) The prefix a is a negative particle in Greek. Putting the parts together, it should mean negation of the Law (Torah). Do the lexicons agree? What does anomia precisely mean in Matthew 7:23? The best lexicon of the ancient Greek (which is free online) is Henry George Liddell’s and Robert Scott’s A Greek-English Lexicon. It defines anomia as one of two meanings:
* “the negation of the law:
* “lawlessness, lawless conduct.”
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Kathy,
“I still have no idea why I “need” to know about the fulfillment of the feasts and all the other Jewish teachings.. I don’t need to know that to understand and accept what Jesus has done for me.”
Because your messiah was Jewish. You don’t convert to Christianity and forget God’s laws to be saved. Salvation is of the Jews. In Torah if you wanted to serve God and were a gentile, you would become circumcised and observe the law, and then you were no longer a gentile, but a Jew. You were given an inheritance, “grafted in”. According to Torah ( the first 5 books in your bible as well as mine) you could not participate in Passover vBulletin if you were not circumcised. If you didn’t participate in Passover, you were cut off from your people. Something to think about… if messiah is your Passover, how can you partake in that without keeping God’s law, in this example circumcision? You can not. So for Paul to say you need not be circumcised, makes him a false apostle according to Deuteronomy 4,13, and 18.
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Another thing you may not realize is that any time some one in the new testament speaks about scripture, they are talking about the old testament, Because the new testament did not exist at that time.
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Ecclesiastes12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Psalm 111:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
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Those last verses were related to your comment about not following God out of fear.
If you are not keeping his Torah, you are not following him.
Another thing to ponder
Paul says you need the free gift of grace because you can’t be righteous. There are many righteous people in the scriptures. You should go back to the “old testament” and look up his proof “there are none righteous” Because this is a misquote of the Tanakh. And if Paul was really trained under Gamaliel (who was the son of Hillel) like he claims, then this misquote was intentional.
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“It means the law that Laurie holds so tightly to is ultimately insignificant.” – Hoo Boy, it’s ON!
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Thanks Arch, your very helpful😒
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Its not on, its off, I’m done
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“Yes arch, the messiah is not the same person as YHWH” – I know that, Laurie, I’m just making it clear for those who believe in the trinity.
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If God’s not real arch, then why does it matter of he’s really one, or really three? That is why I am not going to continue discussing this, because the only people who understand what I’m saying don’t even believe that there is a God. So why discuss it.
This isn’t against you Kathy. So we don’t agree, and that’s okay. I hope you will study the scriptures, and hold tight to your faith. I enjoyed our discussions, but I am done.
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Anyhone see anything contradictory in these two Kathyisms:
“I know all I NEED to know.”
“I haven’t studied in depth like everyone else here.“
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Reality check time guys:
This is what our dear Kathy said
“Understand WHAT William? I don’t deny that it would be good to know as much as possible about the TRUTH of the Bible.. but all I *need* to understand, I already DO!”
She already knows the truth and nothing will ever change her mind. So can somebody explain why we are wasting time (albeit not mine, but mostly the rest of you guys who are still replying to her) giving her facts and evidences when clearly she doesn’t need them? She has already made up her mind just like what Ken Ham said in the recent debate with Bill Nye.
The funny thing is this – believers like William Lane Craig says the same thing! Craig has been noted to claim that Christians’ knowledge of the Holy Spirit is something that is true in itself, and no justification nor evidence is even needed for this claim.
Why am I bringing him up? Well, the only difference between Craig is his ability to debate compared to Ham and Kathy, with decreasing ability/skill/knowledge in that order (yes I am saying Kathy is less competent than Ham, go figure). Considering that we do not constantly talk about Craig nor Ham and their hog wash apologetics and instead move on and talk to real people and listen to their opinions (well founded or not) e.g. Nate’s latest post on Occam Razor. I seriously question why there are still people talking to Kathy even though I believe the argument was long over.
Is it because she has such a lack of debating skills and basic expository bible knowledge that we find her such an easy target to poke and destroy? Or is it because we must have the last word in every single argument?
Either explanation does not reflect well on us Or there may be a genuine concern about her well being that we want to correct her lovingly, but I don’t see us doing that right now. All I see is a bunch of us gathering together and laughing at the village idiot (or the hobo in the park constantly shouting at others – which I think may be a better analogy here since village idiots are generally harmless and pack less opinions) and that is not a good thing.
But who am I to judge? We are our own persons and if doing this give you fulfilling and wholesome pleasure, then go ahead I say. For myself I’ll be trying my best not to be tempted to click this thread any longer even though I must admit it is difficult to take your eyes away from the car wreck – to quote Arch.
Hope I’m not ruffling anybody’s feathers here. Except for Kathy that is, I didn’t even bother to see her reply to my 66 books of protestant bible question ’cause I don’t really have time to scroll all the way up to go through so many pointless posts (irony – but somehow i have the time to type all this junk lol – damn it wrong priorities).
To Kathy:
Have fun in life. You already know everything you need. There’s no point in learning more since you are already at the apex of knowledge. Oh hail the great seer and possessor of truth – because you say so and because someone else told you that you have the truth already. Or was it a book that told you so? Wait, the book which you didn’t really read thoroughly but already claimed you have read enough?
You know what? Why bother talking to us mere mortals? You already won this argument. Stop gloating at us, we can’t bear to look at your face for your greatness that illuminates hurts the eye.
Ta, please allow yourself the last word on whatever I said dear Kathy. Your luminary deserves it. Bye bye
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I’m baaaaack!
Been catching up and simply had to post these Kathy comments:
I know all I NEED to know. (We might as well close up shop and go home.)
it’s not me who is wrong, it’s you. (As it has always been since the beginning of Kathy posts.)
as you/ atheists/ Mormons insist (Notice how “Mormons” are now included and “liberals” has been dropped?)
the only thing we need to do correctly is to honestly repent of our sins and trust in Jesus’ and what He did to save us by paying the debt of our sins. (The rote answer of the Christian on the street.)
Listen all you atheists/liberals/Mormons — stop making it so difficult! Just repent and believe and everything will be hunky dory.
*****************************
Powell Powers, you’re right, of course, but you’re taking all the fun out of things. 😉
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Welcome back Nan! I am leaving but wanted tell you I surfed you site, and will read your book when I have time!
Sounds interesting! Will you still talk to me if I don’t give it a glowing review? Lol! Just teasing, i’m sure I won’t agree, but I bet I’ll learn something new! See you later!
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“And it’s His love and sacrifice that COMPELLS us to do good works…” – I do “good works” nearly day, and I reject both his love and sacrifice, and for that matter, existence, so no compulsion there —
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Oh my God! This conversation is still continuing??
Kathy will never stop believing until the little voice that she believes speaks to her “in her heart” suddenly whispers: “None of its true, Kathy. I was only kidding. Jesus is dead.”
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“Arch,
Use that big brain of yours while I’m gone, and pretend to be me will ya! I’m sure you know what I’m going to say before I say it anyway
s! You will be graded on this assignment. Any good debater can argue from both sides w(h)ether they agree or not! Don’t let me down mensa!”Love to help, Laurie, but it’s dinnertime – I DID correct your spelling, best I could do.
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“how can you have so many firm and staunch opinions on something you clearly havent even studied in depth?” – because she depends on others to tell her what to think, so she won’t have to, it IS a lot of trouble —
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Thanks Arch! My auto correct, and swiping apps are horrible, but they do learn! Since I am a goat herder, wether is much more commonly typed than whether. I also seem to get vBulletin quite often, not sure what that means, but then again I’m no mensa! Stop commenting to me, I am trying to leave, and that isn’t helping!
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I thought you were making dinner arch?
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“Laurie, which of those verses supports your claim that it’s about them doing away with the law?”
Kathy, she’s already told you she has to step away for a bit, as she has things to do – not everyone is independently wealthy like you and I, and must actually perform labor in exchange for pay – I believe they call it “work,” or some such thing. I’m sure she’ll be back later this evening, as she’s crazy about me – make a list of your questions and ask them all then, as she is highly unlikely to hunt through all of the comments to find yours. —
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“Laurie cont..”
Like I said – cont..
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Torah, Kathy – as you MAY have figured out by now, relates to the first five books of the Bible, allegedly written by the fictitious Moses. The Tanakh, is what you would call the Old Testament – most people know this, but you, as everyone is learning, are not “most people.”
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“Thanks Arch, you(‘re) very helpful😒” It was the least I could do; it was also the most I could do.
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