I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
William, Indoctrination trumps age and education
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“Bottom line, what Paul teaches amplifies Jesus’ teachings.. he’s not contradicting them in any way.” – kathy
okay, you keep saying this, Jesus (in matt 5) said that not one little thing will be omitted from the OT until both heaven and earth pass away, and then paul says in Colossians that the OT was nailed to the cross – and Laurie has pointed out the verses where paul says that you can eat meat offered to idols, not be circumcised, etc, which are all violations of the OT.
So, if you refute that position, shouldnt you do so with scripture? Post your passages and walk her down logical lane to your position.
Saying, “you’re just wrong” may feel good sometimes, but it is seldom convincing without anything more to back it up.
Kathy, good lord, to see you criticize others for not answering you, when you have refused to answer and acknowledge many here is ridiculous.
I’m going to consider taking Powell Powers’ advice and bale. I havent yet for a few reasons, maybe some are as he suggests, but I’m also stupid enough to think that maybe at some point you’ll realize that your castle of cards has crumbled long ago. Open your eyes, dear god, dearest made up bible god and the man jesus, please.
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“Indoctrination trumps age and education” – kc
yes i know, but Kathy seems so… far gone… It seems like she’s been locked in cellar somewhere all her life.
I mean, there seems to be a complete inability to look at things through other people’s perspectives and she seems so ill equipped to be able to imagine anything beyond: TRUTH = BIBLE = GOD = JESUS = NOT HAVING TO READ ALL THE BIBLE, BUT ONLY KNOW JESUS = HEAVEN = RIGHT = ANYTHING ELSE = WRONG.
And just like the formula shows, that line of reasoning is very flawed.
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Whoops, sorry William – my copy/paste screwed up, probably should have proofed – meant to say, “‘I am very curious, how old are you and what type of education did you receive?‘ – I’m guessing, mid-twenties and home-schooled by idiots.”
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TRUTH = BIBLE = GOD = JESUS = NOT HAVING TO READ ALL THE BIBLE, BUT ONLY KNOW JESUS = HEAVEN = RIGHT = (ANYTHING ELSE = WRONG).
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arch, i’m assumiong the same thing. i usually try not to make as big deal of age, but i have trouble believing this level of naivete’ comes from an older, more experienced individual.
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Laurie, Jesus is not our “Passover”.. He’s our Savior.
Have you seriously never heard Jesus referred to as the Passover Lamb? Why do you think the crucifixion allegedly coincided with Passover?
Jewish laws don’t apply anymore.
As I referenced and gave links for earlier Jewish law never applied to gentiles apart from the seven Noahide Commandments.
“iniquity – Absence of moral or spiritual values or an unjust act, it is a combination of in-, “not,” and aequus, “equal, just,” from Latin.
See also related terms for moral.
. pl. in·iq·ui·ty
1. Gross immorality or injustice; wickedness.
2. A grossly immoral act; a sin.”
I suppose if you tweak the definition, it can mean “lawlessness”.. but that’s not the
primary definition according to what I just posted.
Perhaps you aren’t aware that Biblical definitions aren’t always the same as Webster’s? We’ve been whacked over the head here for attempting to apply a modern understanding to an ancient text, but you are doing that very thing here.
Maybe you should study the Biblical use of the word in question:
http://biblehub.com/topical/i/iniquity.htm
Other words frequently translated “iniquity” are: ‘awen, literally, “worthlessness,” “vanity,” hence, “naughtiness,” “mischief” (47 times in the King James Version, especially in the phrase “workers of iniquity,” Job 4:8 Psalm 5:5; Psalm 6:8 Proverbs 10:29, etc.); `awel and `awlah, literally, “perverseness” (Deuteronomy 32:4 Job 6:29 the King James Version, etc.).
In the New Testament “iniquity” stands for anomia equals properly, “the condition of one without law,” “lawlessness” (so translated in 1 John 3:4, elsewhere “iniquity,” e.g. Matthew 7:23), a word which frequently stood for `awon in the Septuagint; and adikia, literally, “unrighteousness” (e.g. Luke 13:27).
4189. poneria — iniquity
… iniquity. Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: poneria Phonetic Spelling:
(pon-ay-ree’-ah) Short Definition: wickedness, iniquities Definition …
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/4189.htm – 7k
458. anomia — lawlessness
… Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: anomia Phonetic Spelling:
(an-om-ee’-ah) Short Definition: lawlessness, iniquity Definition: lawlessness …
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/458.htm – 7k
93. adikia — injustice, unrighteousness
… Word Origin from adikos Definition injustice, unrighteousness NASB Word Usage doing
wrong (1), evildoers (1), iniquities (1), iniquity (2), injustice (1 …
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/93.htm – 7k
3892. paranomia — lawbreaking
… transgression, iniquity. From the same as paranomeo; transgression: iniquity. see
GREEK paranomeo. (paranomias) — 1 Occurrence. 3891, 3892. paranomia. 3893 …
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/3892.htm – 6k
92. adikema — a wrong, injury
… evil doing, iniquity, matter of wrong. From adikeo; a wrong done — evil doing,
iniquity, matter of wrong. see GREEK adikeo. (adikema) — 2 Occurrences. …
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/92.htm – 7k
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the letters in red are from jesus
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the letters in red are from jesus
😀
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“i have trouble believing this level of naivete’ comes from an older, more experienced individual.” – Who was it who once said, “I’m glad I’m not young anymore —“
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Arch, “Who was it who once said, “I’m glad I’m not young anymore –“
If we were a little younger we would remember who said it ! 🙂
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Re: “If we were a little younger we would remember who said it!”
Well, I think you two old goats do very well. This ol’ nannie can’t keep up, that’s for sure! 🙂
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Said what?
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@Carmen – Baaaah, humbug!
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Ruth,
“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell.” Luke 12:4-5
I don’t know about anyone else but this doesn’t sound like the “revering” kind of fear. This sounds like emotional blackmail.”
What are you being “blackmailed” for Ruth? What is it that God wants from you that you don’t want to give? You really don’t see how ignorant your thinking is do you?
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“Bottom line, what Paul teaches amplifies Jesus’ teachings.. he’s not contradicting them in any way.
Kathy, you have said several times that others here have studied these things far more in-depth than you have, yet you have the gumption to believe you know more about it than anyone else? ”
Then put me in my “place” Ruth… PROVE me wrong.. don’t just post ridiculous comments in place of that. Again, you have no clue of what you are actually saying.. that anyone who has studied “less” has no right to an opposing opinion. Typical liberal behavior. It’s very simple, just prove me wrong. That’s how it is SUPPOSED to work.
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“PROVE me wrong.. don’t just post ridiculous comments in place of that.” – kathy
wow. so you mean all the links and all the scripture that has been provided counts for nothing?
you’re refused to even look at most of it…
you dont even try to provide more evience than
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
“Again, you have no clue of what you are actually saying.. that anyone who has studied “less” has no right to an opposing opinion.” – kathy
no one that I saw has said that. They are suggesting that maybe if you’re less educated on teh topic that that mean you’re opinion is likely less educated too. the ignorant thing is to realize you’re less educated, but then act as if your opinion is superior.
hope this clarifies.
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Ruth, cont..
In response to your comment @ 8:59.
That’s fine.. I get it, you all are insisting it’s about trying to abolish the law..
So PLEASE.. I’ve asked SEVERAL times now.. please show how that fits with the rest of the verses. Where else does it indicate that it’s about “the law” and not about them not following JESUS’ words and new teachings.
““24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:”
Jesus has taught clearly that it’s not about what you do on the outside but what is in your heart..
your motivation. Is your motivation to follow the law so you can get into heaven or is it to follow JESUS’ teachings that focus on our hearts.. our love.. that is in return for HIS love for us.. and HIS GRACE in dying so that we could be saved.
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“Jesus has taught clearly that it’s not about what you do on the outside but what is in your heart..
your motivation. Is your motivation to follow the law so you can get into heaven or is it to follow JESUS’ teachings that focus on our hearts.. our love.. that is in return for HIS love for us.. and HIS GRACE in dying so that we could be saved.” – kathy
why do you say that? the scriptures that everyone has provided have shown that jesus, according to the bible, taught that actions, obedience, etc to the law were necessary. he just added to it by saying that keeping the law isnt good enough. you must also have a good heart and believe in him too.
of course, since you think you already know all you need to know, you may not have read those passages.
if jesus died for, and if you think the bible is his book, why wouldnt you try to read it more deeply?
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Kathy,
Again, you have no clue of what you are actually saying.. that anyone who has studied “less” has no right to an opposing opinion. Typical liberal behavior. It’s very simple, just prove me wrong. That’s how it is SUPPOSED to work.
You have no clue what you are saying. I didn’t say you don’t have a right to an opposing opinion. But to assert that you are 100% right and that you “know all you need to know” without having studied in-depth seems a bit foolish. You assert things as if you are right and everyone else is wrong. If you haven’t studied as much as others how do you know that? Simple. You don’t.
I’m pretty sure I did prove you wrong with the scripture I quoted. It says nothing about love. It is about fear and intimidation – pure and simple. “Do what I say or I’ll burn you” is emotional blackmail. I gave you scripture. Which is more than I can say for you. You won’t even do so much as that, when asked. And I did ask.
Not only did I give you scripture, but I showed you boldly where you were wrong about your use of iniquity. From a Bible Study website – not some lib’ral/atheist interpretation.
PROVE me wrong.. don’t just post ridiculous comments in place of that.
You have been proven wrong over and over with evidence to support. The fact that you won’t(your words, not mine) agree unless it is supported in scripture has no bearing on whether you’ve been proven wrong or not. You’ve even been proven wrong with scriptural support. You refuse to accept it because you won’t agree unless it supports your understanding of scripture. You assert things as if you couldn’t possibly be wrong.
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@Kathy,
I’m wondering a little about your interpretation of James:
You said this in reference to some passages in James (as well as some other passages):
I know this an extreme example, but sometimes thinking about the extremes can bring a little clarification. Let’s say someone went around continuing to kill people for fun and they said “it’s not about following the law to get into heaven – I trust Jesus and believe He died for my sins, so even though I still kill people for enjoyment I know I will be in heaven.”
Would you say that a correct interpretation of the James passages is that this person is likely not truly saved and will not go to heaven?
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Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Do you even understand that Jesus’ sayings were based on the law? Of course it matters what’s in a person’s character – what you are calling a heart. It doesn’t matter, though, what a person says they believe. It matters what they do/how they live. Because what a person does is the essence of their character. Not what the believe – what they do.
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So PLEASE.. I’ve asked SEVERAL times now.. please show how that fits with the rest of the verses. Where else does it indicate that it’s about “the law” and not about them not following JESUS’ words and new teachings.
The rest of which verses?
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Kathy says: “Bottom line, what Paul teaches amplifies Jesus’ teachings.. he’s not contradicting them in any way.”
Paul’s Contradictions of Jesus (written by an evangelical Christian)
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Where else does it indicate that it’s about “the law” and not about them not following JESUS’ words and new teachings.
Jesus’ teachings were not new. If you studied the OT you would know that. Jesus was allegedly building on the OT – not taking a wrecking ball to it.
““24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:”
Jesus has taught clearly that it’s not about what you do on the outside but what is in your heart..
your motivation. Is your motivation to follow the law so you can get into heaven or is it to follow JESUS’ teachings that focus on our hearts.. our love.. that is in return for HIS love for us.. and HIS GRACE in dying so that we could be saved.
Kathy, even the scripture you provided kills your argument here. Jesus doesn’t say “do it for love”. He says that whoever hears his sayings and does them is like a wise man who built his house on a strong foundation. In none of that does Jesus (even allegedly) say not to follow the law.
Why would you even begin to believe you need a savior unless you know that you broke the law? How would you know you broke the law if you don’t even know what the law is?
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