I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
Perhaps if you understood the difference between Jews and gentiles it might help? I’m not saying you have to change your position. But it would help if you understood – or at least tried to understand – the position of others. As it stands you don’t seem to care to understand their position. You only care that you’re right and their wrong in your mind.
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“What are you being ‘blackmailed’ for Ruth? What is it that God wants from you that you don’t want to give?” – Praise, love, adoration, reverence, my last pair of clean underwear —
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“Then put me in my “place” Ruth…prove me wrong” – Laurie tried to, but left the board in frustration after you made it obvious that nothing could get through that thick, deeply-indoctrinated skull of yours.
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“You only care that you’re right and their wrong in your mind.”
Ruth,
I never said the law should be abolished.. no one is saying this, you are failing to grasp the point.
What Jesus taught was God’s GRACE. That it’s not the law, following the law, that “saves” us but Him and His sacrifice. This was “new”.
“Perhaps if you understood the difference between Jews and gentiles it might help? I’m not saying you have to change your position. But it would help if you understood – or at least tried to understand – the position of others. As it stands you don’t seem to care to understand their position. You only care that you’re right and their wrong in your mind.”
Why didn’t you answer my question? What is God “blackmailing” you?
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Ruth cont.. and also for Nate and anyone who believes they have an answer..
“So PLEASE.. I’ve asked SEVERAL times now.. please show how that fits with the rest of the verses. Where else does it indicate that it’s about “the law” and not about them not following JESUS’ words and new teachings.
The rest of which verses?”
Laurie’s comment on the 2nd @ 2:48 pm
and in particular regards to this verse:
“23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Which you yourself had commented on the debate about the meaning
of “iniquity”.
Where in those verses in Laurie’s comment does it indicate that Jesus is condemning them for attempting to abolish the law?
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Kathy, everything you know about Jesus and his saving grace is from Paul. It is HIS teaching that salvation comes through believing in Jesus and his atoning death on the cross. This doctrine was never mentioned, promoted, or taught by Jesus himself. Nor is it addressed anywhere in the Hebrew Bible.
It ALL comes from Paul.
(Keep in mind that Paul’s letters were written BEFORE the gospels. This means that everything in M,M,L,& J has Paul’s theology stamped on it.)
For centuries the Jewish people had been taught that salvation came through following the Mosaic law. In Leviticus 18:5, God said: You shall keep my statutes and my ordinances; by doing so one shall live: I am the LORD. And in Deuteronomy 27:26: Cursed be anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by observing them.
Yet Paul came along and abolished the law (he talks about it in Galatians). This included the requirements about eating only certain types of food, following the Mosaic law, keeping the Sabbath, performing blood sacrifices, and observing Jewish festivals. Most importantly, he took away the most contentious part of Jewish law – male circumcision.
What gave him the right to do this? Especially when Jesus said in Matthew 5:19: “whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.” (Emphasis added).
I know what you have been taught about Jesus. Every Christian is taught the same thing. But if you would “Study to shew thyself approved unto God … rightly dividing the word of truth,” you might discover that there is much more to the “gospel story” that what is presented in church and Sunday School.
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Nan, what you fail to consider is WHY did Jesus come and take on human form and die on the cross? Paul is explaining why.. and it is based on Jesus’ own words.. “I am the way..”
Yes, in OT times, following God’s law and rules was critical, it meant physical death if His laws weren’t followed. The OT is primarily about obedience to God.. and what happened when they didn’t obey Him. God was establishing Himself with His creation.. He was showing us how to respond to Him and worship Him. The REST of God’s plan was revealed through Christ and His sacrificial death. The OT is about obedience and reverence (fear) of God.. (you don’t respect/ fear what you don’t believe in).. and the NT is about God’s grace.. Jesus explained that NONE are good. And ALL NEED God’s grace. And God has offered it to us.
Paul is NOT teaching that the law no longer matters, it’s what is used to convict us, to show us our NEED for the rest of God’s plan… we are no longer to TRUST in the law, in following the law, for our salvation… we have Jesus to take away our sins.. we trust in HIM.. NOT the law.
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You know something People – we’ve stopped debating atheism vs Theism, and begun debating which part of Christianity is most valid. Did I get too close to the event horizon and get sucked into a wormhole? Like Kathy and Vinnie Barbarino, “I’m SO confused!”
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“God was establishing Himself with His creation.. He was showing us how to respond to Him and worship Him.” – as good little pets!
“The OT is about obedience and reverence (fear) of God.. (you don’t respect/ fear what you don’t believe in)..” – And you don’t respect that which you fear.
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I don’t “fail to consider” anything. I’ve spent several years of research and study on this topic.
Like I said, Kathy, these are Paul’s teachings –.not Jesus’.
*sigh* I think I”m going to follow in Laurie’s footsteps. I’m done. No guarantees … but I think I’ve reached my limit on trying to get through to this girl. She’s far too embedded in the (false) teachings of the church.
William, Arch, Ruth, Laurie, Carmen, and of course, Nate … maybe, just maybe, one of you will break through. But I’m not going to hold my breath.
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You too, Ron, Howie, and KC. (Forgive me if I missed anyone!)
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No, Nan, I have no hope of “breaking through” – I just intend to be the last man standing.
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“I don’t “fail to consider” anything. I’ve spent several years of research and study on this topic.
Like I said, Kathy, these are Paul’s teachings –.not Jesus’. ”
Nope.. that’s a FAIL Nan.. I’ve asked you a question based on your claim.. if Paul is incorrect then WHY did Jesus come and die on the cross??
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Revelation 2:1-2 “To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,
‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;
Who are these false apostles Kathy?
Matthew 10:2-4
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was[a] Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite,[b] and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
This is a list of the 12 apostles.
Who replaced Judas?
Acts 1:15-26
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples[a] (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;[b]
and,
‘Let[c] another take his office.’[d]
21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
There are three requirements to be elected as the new 12th apostle. They had have seen his baptism, walked with him during his ministry and been witness to his resurrection. Paul did non of these things. There were only 12 apostles, after Judas was replaced they received the holy spirit on Shavout. When James was martyred in Acts 12 they did not replace him. Why?
Revelation 21:14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names[a] of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Matthew 19:28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
In revelations 2 we are told that not only did these people falsely claim apostleship, but they were liars.
Did Paul lie?
Acts 9:3-9New King James Version (NKJV)
3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.[a] It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
Acts 22:6-16New King James Version (NKJV)
6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’
9 “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid,[a] but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. 10 So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’ 11 And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.
12 “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’
Acts 26:13-20. 13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now[a] send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Paul’s Post-Conversion Life
19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.
Did they all fall to the ground Kathy? Did they hear the voice our only see the light? Who gave him his mission, was it Anaias or Yahusha? Did Paul go to Jerusalem and all Judea?
Galatians 1:15-20. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
Contacts at Jerusalem
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter,[a] and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. 20 (Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie.)
He’s not lying
Who was the apostle to the gentiles, Peter or Paul?
Galatians 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter
Acts 15:7
7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Please read acts 21:18-28
Why was Paul arrested? Now read acts 23:6. Why do you think he lied to Agrippa?
If you lie, that makes you a liar.
So according to the Revelation, the false apostles were liars and taught to eat meat sacrificed to idols, they were in Ephesus but the Ephesians discovered they were false.
In 2 Timothy 1:15 Paul says that all those in Asia turned away from him. The capital of Asia is Ephesus.
Go back to the 7 churches. Do you see anything interesting about them? I do. Apart from the Ephesians who tested Paul and found him a liar, none of the other 6 churches were his. Why didn’t any of Paul’s churches make the list? Because the story of revelations revolves around the two women. One clothed in white, and one wearing purple and scarlet. These women are the church. The white, God’s true people, and the red, the scarlet whore of Babylon, the false church. When the scriptures say Lucifer deceives the whole world, even the very elect if possible, that includes the over 2 billion Christians. Christians make up a third of the population. If it wasn’t including Christians, it wouldn’t have said the whole world.
Even the demons believe and tremble!
But believing won’t save them
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This is just the tip of the iceberg Kathy.
Sorry for the long post Nate! Feel free to delete it! Just thought this might put an end to the never ending argument. But probably not.
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Excellent Job, Laurie ! Your evidence would convince anyone with an OPEN mind. As I have said to Arch, Indoctrination trumps age and education and I might add, an open mind sadly.
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Arch says: “You know something People – we’ve stopped debating atheism vs Theism, and begun debating which part of Christianity is most valid.”
Yeah, it’s kind of like arguing over who was the best Starfleet captain, or who was the best James Bond actor.
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DELETE it? I’m copying it! While we disagree, Laurie, you’re the most deeply-thinking theist I know!
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“who was the best Starfleet captain, or who was the best James Bond actor.” – that’s too easy – Kirk and Connery!
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@Kathy,
I’d really like to get your perspective on my question I asked in my last comment. I haven’t even suggested anything yet – I first need to really understand exactly your views before I can even figure out where it leads.
So again, I’m wondering a little about your interpretation of James:
You said this in reference to some passages in James (as well as some other passages):
I know this an extreme example, but sometimes thinking about the extremes can bring a little clarification. Let’s say someone went around continuing to kill people for fun and they said “it’s not about following the law to get into heaven – I trust Jesus and believe He died for my sins, so even though I still kill people for enjoyment I know I will be in heaven.”
Would you say that a correct interpretation of the James passages is that this person is likely not truly saved and will not go to heaven?
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Laurie,
Thanks for posting such an excellent and well-reasoned comment! There’s no way I would delete it. While it’s true that we’ve gotten a bit off track for an atheist blog, I’m enjoying the conversation and feel no need to rein it in.
If you don’t mind, I’m going to pull out my old Christian thinking cap, knock the dust off, see if it still fits, and play a bit of “Paul’s advocate” for a moment. 🙂
Earlier, I had asked if you also dismiss books like Hebrews, 2 Peter, and Jude, since you have problems with Paul. I had meant to include Acts in that list as well since the book spends so much time with him, but it slipped my mind. I know you haven’t had a chance to answer that yet, and it’s easy to lose track with all these comments coming so quickly. But if you get time, I’d like to hear your response, especially since your post refers to Acts so much.
You’re right to point out the difficulties in the various accounts of Paul’s experience on the way to Damascus, and you seem to infer that he can’t be all that trustworthy with these differences in his stories. But Paul didn’t write Acts, so is it fair for us to hold these differences against him? Also, if we say that the writer of Acts accurately recorded these conversations as well as the actual event in Acts 9, then it would seem that Jesus really did appear to him. So I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on that.
Furthermore, while there are differences in those accounts, I can imagine ways to reconcile them: Paul’s companions could have fallen down as he says in Acts 26, but then stood before Paul did, which would match Acts 9.
Acts 9 says the men heard a voice but saw no one, while Acts 22 says that they saw a light, but didn’t hear anyone. This one is a bit tougher to reconcile, but only when it comes to the voice. While Acts 9 says they didn’t see anyone, it doesn’t preclude them seeing a light. And a fervent believer could probably be convinced that “hear a voice” is being used differently in the two passages. Perhaps they did physically hear a voice, but simply didn’t understand it?
That might be a bit of a stretch, but I don’t think it’s any worse than the excuses that are made for the problems in the gospels, and you’ve said that the gospels don’t have contradictions. So would you agree that you’re possibly being a bit tougher on Paul than you are the gospels?
As far as whether Peter or Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, I can see where someone would argue that it was both. In Acts 10, Peter is the first to convert a Gentile, because God sends him to Cornelius. Peter first has the vision where God tells him to eat unclean animals, and then once the Holy Spirit comes on Cornelius’s house, Peter realizes that God is saying Gentiles can now be saved through Christ as well.
So Peter had the honor of “breaking the cherry” on Gentile Christians, but Paul was given a commission to actually focus on that group.
Incidentally, Peter’s vision in Acts 10 is another indication that some of the old law is passing away, having served its purpose. Which again makes me wonder how much of Acts you can rely on, since it seems so supportive of Paul.
So now we have Paul’s epistles, the writer of Hebrews, the writer of 2 Peter, and the writer of Acts. And if the writer of Acts also wrote Luke, then you have to toss it out as well, right?
Now, laying aside my old Christian hat, let me reiterate that I think the simplest explanation is this: none of these books are inspired. They were written by various people who simply disagreed on some of these issues. Simple as that.
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Nate, where is my comment I just posted?
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Laurie, is this your source for these claims?
Last Trumpet Org Ministries / Newport Beach, California
“And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;
Who are these false apostles Kathy?”
Apostles is plural.. that means there were several.. why does Paul have to be one of them? You’ve given extremely weak arguments for this.
” There were only 12 apostles, after Judas was replaced they received the holy spirit on Shavout. When James was martyred in Acts 12 they did not replace him. Why?”
They didn’t replace Judas because he died.. they replaced him because he was no longer qualified to be one of the 12.
James was, especially because of his martyrdom.. and he’s one of the 12 in Heaven. There was no need to replace him.
As for the “contradictions” regarding Paul’s story of conversion… some of the Bible translations state that the people didn’t “understand” the voice.. not “hear” the voice.
Who fell to the ground? All of them.
Did you even realize that these “contradictions” were in the SAME book?? Again,
what you’re claiming doesn’t make sense.. they’d never let a mistake like that get by.
And that’s where I stopped, this is very time consuming and not necessary once the problem is clear.. there is a lack of honest, unbiased, objectivity. If you were objective, you’d have figured out these answers yourself.
I can still answer all of your points anyway.. but I would first like an answer to my question that I posed to you earlier, and Nan and everyone else..
If Paul is “lying”.. if he is a false apostle.. if his explanation is incorrect about Jesus’ message and mission.. then WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die on the cross?? Why didn’t animal sacrifice just continue? What was the reason God sent His Son to die?
Deny anything you want.. but be prepared to have an alternative explanation… I’m still waiting..
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Howie,
“Would you say that a correct interpretation of the James passages is that this person is likely not truly saved and will not go to heaven?”
Howie, which passages of James are you referring to?
But, no, this person would most likely not be going to Heaven.
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