I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
Nate – are you at all familiar with The Acts Seminar?
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“And that’s where I stopped, this is very time consuming and not necessary once the problem is clear.. there is a lack of honest, unbiased, objectivity. If you were objective, you’d have figured out these answers yourself.” – there she goes again, this time, aimed at Laurie, the one person, more than any other, who is trying to help the poor deluded child. Now Laurie is dishonest, biased and lacking in objectivity. Do you suppose she’s a Liberal?
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I’ll just leave this here…
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2014/09/03/changing-the-subject-2/
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I don’t mean to attack her Arch, but I don’t see any other explanation.. for any of you. If you don’t apply objectivity, if you allow bias in, it is a form of dishonesty. And we all are guilty of it at one time or another.
But when it’s been pointed out to you and Nan and Ruth and Nate and William and every other liberal here.. over and over and over.. it becomes blatant dishonesty and deliberate ignorance.. it points out an obvious issue with pride and ego.. which again, the Bible, in it’s wisdom, warns us about over and over.
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Kathy said,
What a strange request to make of the people who (I believe) are demonstrating that the scriptures are indeed not internally consistent.
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Thanks kc and arch!
Nate, it is late here but I will get to your comment tomorrow!
Kathy,
No that is not where I got it from, but I will check that site tomorrow. I am afraid you just started a battle that you can’t win. That is the first two pages (very condensed mind you) of about 30 that I have written on this subject. The reason I posted that piece, ids that Out outs fairly easy to understand. If you don’t or won’t read the old testament, and you don’t understand why John the Baptist called Yahusha the lamb of God, then the rest of my study would be difficult for you to understand at this point in your journey.
You seem to think I am some liberal atheist, when the truth is that I am the only one here who agrees with a lot of your beliefs.
I used to be a lot like you when I was younger. My mother was Catholic, and father Baptist. I was raised going to church every Sunday.
In 2003 I deployed to Iraq with my unit. When you are digging holes to go to the bathroom in and eating MRE’s you tend to get closer to God. After being in the desert for 13 months, and reading my bible, things started to change. It has been a long journey for me, but an honest one. If you can say the same, you have all my respect.
One thing thou,that I would ask you to prayerfully consider…
If there is even one thing in my 30 pages that you can’t explain, one place where Paul lied or contradicted Yahusha, then he IS a false prophet.
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Laurie,
Peter lied when he said He didn’t know Jesus.. so does that make him a false prophet?
I respect very much your knowledge and dedication to what you’ve chosen to believe. I just don’t agree. Even though you’ve studied more than me, I don’t mind.. I still would like to debate and find out what the truth is.. that’s the whole point of debating.
You’ve said several times that Paul is a false prophet.. but you still haven’t answered my question about why Jesus needed to sacrifice Himself…. is a part 2 of your comment coming?
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“The reason I posted that piece, ids that Out outs fairly easy to understand.”
I…. don’t even understand that sentence.. ?? 🙂
“If you don’t or won’t read the old testament, and you don’t understand why John the Baptist called Yahusha the lamb of God, then the rest of my study would be difficult for you to understand at this point in your journey. ”
Laurie, I fully understand why Jesus was called the Lamb of God. And that you made that point only prompts me to ask again… WHY was Jesus the Lamb of God?? WHY was He sacrificed??
Also, that reminds me, in your last comment was this:
“18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. ”
Does “iniquity” have the same meaning here? A desire to abolish the law?
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I…. don’t even understand that sentence.. ??
My auto correcting phone sucks, and won’t recognize it or is, so that happens a lot
The word iniquity here is adikias, out means unrighteousness
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It*
I’m going bed
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Why didn’t you answer my question? What is God “blackmailing” you?
You are awfully demanding for someone who doesn’t answer questions asked of her. But I did answer your question.
“Do what I say or I’ll burn you” is emotional blackmail.
Holding the threat of torture over anyone’s head for obedience, worship, reverence, respect, and, yes, even love is emotional blackmail.
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Kathy,
Fear is not a good motivator for love. It might get you [some] respect, but it won’t get you love. And the respect part would only be out of fear – not because the person or god is truly worthy of it.
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@Kathy,
You were all talking about those passages before and what I block-quoted you saying in my last comment was your response to that. Mainly James 2:14-26 where he talks about faith and works, but really a lot of James talks about works.
Ok, so it looks like what you are saying is that we must realize that the salvation itself is not at all a result of works we do, but works are still important in a sense that if you don’t follow them then it is an indicator that you are not truly saved.
This is how I understood James when I was an Evangelical Christian. I hope I’m not being overly pedantic here, but I really do want to make sure we are on the same page with this. I’m not interested in a talk with you where we talk past each other. So is my description of your view in my last paragraph correct?
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Hey arch,
I’ve heard of the Acts Seminar, but haven’t researched it all that much. I know the broad strokes, I guess. I’m looking forward to hearing what Laurie thinks about the book. Seems to me that it would be hard for her to accept it, but she still referenced it a good deal for her points.
Btw, do you happen to know what the Acts Seminar concluded concerning the authorship of Acts and Luke?
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“If you don’t apply objectivity, if you allow bias in, it is a form of dishonesty. And we all are guilty of it at one time or another.” – But you, dear little Kathy, are guilty of it all of the time.
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“In 2003 I deployed to Iraq with my unit. When you are digging holes to go to the bathroom in and eating MRE’s you tend to get closer to God.” – You’ve earned my respect, Laurie, but not my agreement – Viet Nam Vet here, and I felt no closer to your god AFTER I waded through a swamp with my M-16 over my head, than I did before.
William has an Afghanistan story to tell, but it’s his to share or not, as he chooses.
You got to eat? 🙂 You had HOLES? – you lucky lady! – we had to figure out (trial and error) which tree leaf made the best toilet tissue! Squeezing the Charmin was not an option for us —
(Come on now, this is your chance to say, “You had TREE LEAVES? We had to scrub clean with sand!”)
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“I still would like to debate and find out what the truth is.. that’s the whole point of debating.” – Actually, it isn’t Kathy – the point of a debate is saying, “I have the truth and you don’t, and I can support my contention better than you!” The point of a DISCUSSION, which I initially believed this was going to be, is to search for the truth of a given subject, where everyone has the opportunity to present their viewpoints. How can you call it debate and still say, “you don’t have to provide evidence, if everybody knows it’s true”? Or, “I know all I NEED to know”?
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@Kathy – RE:
Yeah, I had a bit of a problem with that one too – I don’t believe Laurie’s drunk, I’d bet she’s using an app that tries to second-guess what she’s going to say and types in that word/words, which in the above instance, was wrong. Proof-reading is never a waste of time.
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Nate,
One problem with Peter’s vision about all animals being declared clean in Acts 10:9-16, is that it is completely redundant when you consider that Mark 7:1-20 has Jesus giving everyone an entire lecture on that very subject:
After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) Mark 7:17-19 (NIV)
Apparently Peter really was that dull.
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@arch
Re Viet Nam: Did you at least get to go surfing on the Nung River? 🙂
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Kathy,
You believe the bible without question, but seem under-educated on what it actually contains. I have some more questions for you that I hope you’ll answer and not ignore like you typically do. I’m numbering these like I have the last several – but I’m sure you’ll ignore these as well.
A1)
Why do you believe it without question, when you reject all other religions without question? Do you think all should be reviewed fairly and objectively, or do you think that everyone should only accept the bible, giving it the benefit of doubt, while doubting everything else until substantial evidence or proof dictates otherwise?
A2)
Why do you accept a story of an actual virgin giving birth, merely on a claim in an old book? And keep in mind, the “prophecy” this event was said to fulfill, doesn’t actually use the word “virgin” but “young woman.” And keep in mind that the OT chapter (Isaiah 8) that immediately follows the original “prophecy” (in Isaiah 7) has a baby being born to a “young woman.”
A3)
Matthew said dead people rose from the dead and walked around at jesus’ death. Why do you think no one else saw this extraordinary enough to write down and record?
A4)
The sun moved backward for King Hezekiah. Why do you think no one else or no other nation recorded this event?
A5)
The sun stood still for Joshua during a battle. Why do you think no one else or no other nation recorded this event?
A6)
Read genesis 1 carefully. Pay attention to how it portrays the earth and the solar system. Does it match what science tells us, or do you see where the writer of genesis 1 has the sun and the moon in the same “vault” or “firmament” or “sky” that the birds fly in, with the “waters above” being above the sun, moon and birds – as if the sky is blue because it’s water, and since you can see the sun and moon, they must be on this side of that heavenly gulf? What do you make of that?
A7)
Gen 1 & 2. Where did god bring the birds out of?
These are just a few of the issues. I’d really like your opinion on them. I think Arch is correct; we’ve gotten off point, and even though I think nate is also correct, in that the deviation has been interesting, I still think that I’d still like to get you to spend some time on the original topic if you please.
I see that you do not like your questions and points to be ignored or forgotten – no one does, so please “do unto others” here and reply to each of these points. Again, I have given others that I have labeled in an effort to make easier, too.
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@Laurie – RE: “See if this one works”
Yup, it did. Kathy will never read it, but I did. It left me with two questions:
• Why does all of this matter, when there is absolutely no evidence that anyone named Moshe, nor 2.6 million Jews were ever in Egypt?
• Why does your god care so much about what we do with our sexual organs – I swear, he’s more preoccupied with sex than I am! But then, if you never get any, I guess you would be —
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Picking up sticks on Sabbath = stoning – advice on how NOT to hold a congenial, neighborhood stoning in jolly olde Israel:
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“only the true messiah would say that he isnt…” and “blessed are the cheese makers.”
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“do you happen to know what the Acts Seminar concluded concerning the authorship of Acts and Luke?”
Yes. It had previously been believed that the author of “Luke” and “The Acts” was written by a companion of Paul, who followed him and reported what he saw, and consequently, was believed to have been an independent source, corroborating Paul’s stories. The Acts Seminar, a panel of biblical experts, meeting annually for ten years, concluded that the author of “The Acts” actually wrote his works in the early 2nd century, using Paul’s letters as the basis of his tale, and hence, was no corroboration at all.
Yet one more verification of the validity of “Sportin’ Life’s” song from “Porgy and Bess” – “It ain’t necessarily so, the things that you’re li’ble to read in the Bible, they ain’t necessarily so –“
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