I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
“Peter’s vision about all animals being declared clean in Acts 10:9-16” – Interesting, isn’t it Ron, that pseudo-Luke, who clearly supported Paul, uses The Acts, long after Pete’s death, to say that Pete confirmed what Paul, with whom Peter did NOT get along, had been saying all along? A bit reminiscent of Kathy’s saying things like, “Well, you can’t prove he DIDN’T!” And Kathy can’t see how these guys all built upon each other – somehow, to her, that’s proof that the Bible is true.
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“Re Viet Nam: Did you at least get to go surfing on the Nung River? 🙂” – Never got near the coast. I also lived – literally – across the road from the Pacific in Baja, California, and never learned to surf – it’s one of my regrets.
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The rest of which verses?”
Laurie’s comment on the 2nd @ 2:48 pm
and in particular regards to this verse:
“23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Which you yourself had commented on the debate about the meaning
of “iniquity”.
This is that portion of scripture with the surrounding verses:
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Context here has nothing to do with love nor grace.
This is how I was taught to read scripture: Whenever a verse is followed by a therefore that scripture applies to the previous one. Therefore whoever does what Jesus says is like a wise man who built his house on a solid foundation. What did Jesus just say? He just said that “on that day many will say to me Lord, Lord have we not preached in your name? Have we not cast out demons in your name? Have we not done many good works in your name?” Then Jesus says to them in the literal translation:
“And then I will declare to them, “Never knew I you, depart you from me, those working lawlessness.”
This is coming from the literal translation from an interlinear Bible. Why would Jesus say to them depart from me “those working lawlessness” to people who had done “many good works” in his name? Because following the law is not considered a “good work”. No, your “good works” will not save you, but a Jew is not excused from following the Mitzvot. And gentiles are not excused from following the Noahide Commandments according to scripture.
I challenge you, Kathy, to post any of Jesus’ teachings – the red letter words – that teach that one is saved by grace alone.
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Also, Kathy, you asked a question somewhere about why sacrifices are no longer offered.
From Judaism 101:
“We stopped offering sacrifices because we do not have a proper place to offer them. The Torah specifically commands us not to offer sacrifices wherever we feel like it; we are only permitted to offer sacrifices in the place that G-d has chosen for that purpose. Deut. 12:13-14. It would be a sin to offer sacrifices in any other place, akin to stealing candles and wine to observe Shabbat.
The last place appointed by G-d for this purpose was the Temple in Jerusalem, but the Temple has been destroyed and a mosque has been erected in the place where it stood. Until G-d provides us with another place, we cannot offer sacrifices. There was at one time an opinion that in the absence of an assigned place, we could offer sacrifices anywhere. Based on that opinion, certain communities made their own sacrificial places. However, the majority ultimately ruled against this practice, and all sacrifice ceased.
Orthodox Jews believe that when the messiah comes, a place will be provided for sacrificial purposes.”
When the temple was destroyed in the second century animal sacrifices, for the most part, ended because their God ordained place to do so no longer existed. They believe that when Messiah comes for his 1000 years reign that the temple will be rebuilt and they will resume animal sacrifice.
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“…do you see where the writer of genesis 1 has the sun and the moon in the same ‘vault’ or ‘firmament’ or ‘sky’ that the birds fly in, with the ‘waters above’ being above the sun, moon and birds”
William, you know well enough by now, that I would never defend the Bible without cause, but in this instance, there is one – it lies in a translation error, made by the translators of Latin into English for the King James Bible.
Translated, – and yes, I’ve studied Latin – the bolded portion (if it shows up on WP) says: “over the earth, under (not “in”) the firmament of heaven” – “super,” meaning “above,” and “sub,” meaning, “below.”
These two copies of the King James Version of the Bible have incorrectly translated one Latin preposition, “sub,” to read, “in,” thereby changing the context of the entire sentence, placing heaven inside Earth’s atmospheric envelope.
Yet the King James version is an English translation of the Latin Vulgate, which is a translation of the Hebrew Pentateuch, which is a translation of a number of different languages, based in part upon stories handed down verbally from generation to generation for hundreds of years. We’re only twenty verses into the first book, yet I, who basically just fell off a turnip truck, academically-speaking, have already discovered a translation error that changes the context of an entire verse – how many more of those would you expect there are in the whole book?
Here’s another Latin phrase for you: “caveat emptor” – ”Let the buyer beware.”
Pax vobiscum – or as Laurie might say, Shalom —
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I confirmed what I was afraid of – the “bold” function does not work in a blockquote. But I italicized the same words in the paragraph below, so it should be obvious to all but Kathy, what I meant.
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Howie,
Is there something you can add to that?
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“blessed are the cheese makers,” for they shall be called the producers of artery-clogging cholesterol and mouth-watering nachos —
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Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. NKJV *emphasis mine
Jesus allegedly specifically taught that the commandments were to continue to be followed.
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ah, thanks Arch. You know, you may have corrected me on this once before,as this seems very familiar now. I’m sorry that i had forgotten, if in fact you or anyone else had corrected me before.
I’ve looked at several translations, the NIV being one of them other than the kjv, and they all gave me the impression of sun and moon below what we know to be the atmosphere.
But i dont doubt you. i’ll research it later once I have time.
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“When the temple was destroyed in the second century” – the temple was destroyed in the 1st century, Ruth, in 72 CE.
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Hey arch,
I just found out that the <strong> tag won’t be picked up in a blockquote, but the <b> tag will (“b” for bold). Also, this is only a limitation of this particular theme, not WordPress itself.
Sorry!
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Thanks for that correction, arch. I meant the first century. I don’t know why I wrote second.
Maybe because I’m arguing points about something I don’t even believe is real? Geez…
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“I’ve looked at several translations, the NIV being one of them other than the kjv, and they all gave me the impression of sun and moon below what we know to be the atmosphere.” – You’re not wrong, William, the translators were.
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“I just found out that the tag won’t be picked up in a blockquote, but the tag will (“b” for bold). Also, this is only a limitation of this particular theme, not WordPress itself.</em?"
Yes, and on Neuro's site, when you use "em," you get little tiny, 8-point script, and "i" doesn't work at all, so to get normal-sized italics, you have to use "cite" – that WP is just a regular little bundle of joy, isn't it?
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ratamacue0 — GREAT article! Really says it all. Especially liked this paragraph:
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My brain can add lots of things and sometimes unfortunately the different things it can add is conflicting.
Either way, I’d prefer to fully understand Kathy’s point of view for sure before adding, otherwise my addition is probably not helpful.
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@arch, these aren’t really problems with WordPress; they have to do with how the theme developer decided to style those particular tags.
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Good stuff (from http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2007/08/does-the-empero.html)
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“@arch, these aren’t really problems with WordPress; they have to do with how the theme developer decided to style those particular tags.”
With my original website, you highlighted a word or phrase, clicked “b,” or “i,” or “u” in the overhead toolbar, and your word or phrase was bolded, or italicized, or underlined – no HTML to worry about. That’s what I’m looking for.
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Luckily, that can be done for anyone who does their own hosting. They might need a little help from a developer like me, but it’s not that hard to add a wysiwyg (what you see is what you get) editor for comments. I just can’t do it, because I host with WordPress.
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“I just can’t do it, because I host with WordPress.” – and that’s why I won’t —
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Nate – do any of the WordPress upgrades have options that allow for wysiwyg’s for comments? WordPress does seem to have several short comings with commenting.
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William, suggestion: when you number questions, use persistent unique numbers for each one. So if you pose a new set of questions later, resume numbering (i.e. start with 7 or whatever). This will aid in tracking responses.
Hopefully Kathy will keep the numbers in any responses.
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Yeah, but if you host your own site again, you could still use the WP engine and just customize the things you want, like a wysiwyg editor for comments.
Just something to think about. 🙂
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