I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
Sorry!
The previous link does address Kathy’s question, but the article that goes into considerable detail is here does.
Also I failed to include that the Jewish perspective is also considered.
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evidence for gravity?
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@Howie,
@Ruth – I think I just realized I may have misunderstood your question before so my answer to you may have seemed odd. It’s no big deal though.
Well, my question may not have been as clear as I thought, either. But I think you figured it out, now, that I was asking about Judaism and why the Jews no longer offer sacrifices.
Totally not a big deal.
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@Ruth,
Yes, and what you wrote looked very good – seems to match what I was taught by rabbis growing up.
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Nate,
It would help me to answer your questions, if you could number them with a short description.
But I will answer what I remember now, and you can let me know if I missed .
Not that I tend to agree with scholars often, but most scholars agree that the books attributed to Peter, were not written by him. 1 peter was written by Silvanius, who correct me if I am wrong, was the same person as Silas. This was one of Paul’s side kicks. Even if the whole book was not psuedepigraphical, it is easy to see that the verses about Paul were inserted later. I tend to stay away from those books.
Acts is a fascinating book. Luke seems to use the rules of Philo to tell us the untold story here (You can read about Philos works online, in the Jewish encyclopedia Kathy). Notice in Luke’s story he uses the name Judas (where Paul went after being blinded), Ananias (who was killed by Peter for lying, with his wife Saphira), a blinding light which is synonymous for Lucifer, and serpents scales that covered his eyes. Luke wrote a story that would survive, and screamed “Trojan horse!” . And that is the story of Paul, who infiltrated the people of messiah, and started a new religion, Christianity.
Think about what he wrote. Messiah said NOBODY would see him again until every eye beholds him at his coming, and that if anyone claims to see him in the desert or wilderness, go not after them. Damascus is described both a desert and wilderness in the scriptures. When he comes again, it will be in the flesh. Messiah was a healer, why would he blind Paul, and never recover his sight fully?
I understand your point about hearing, and understanding, but it is just makes Christians sleep better at night. It is not based on translation. There are five greek words for understand, if understand is what he meant, that is what he would have said. But he didn’t. There are several passages that use both these words in greek, you should look them up Kathy.
The book of Hebrews was likely written by Apollos, or another one of Paul’s greek followers. Either way, it can not be inspired. The author misplaced the pot of manna, Aaron’s rod, and the altar of incense into the wrong part of the sanctuary, and contradicts the Torah on frequency of sin offering. He also said goats, scarlet wool, hyssop and water were used in the ratification of the covenant, and this is not so. He seems to be confusing the ashes of the red heifer, and cleansing the leper. Those are just a few factual errors, there are many more, not to mention theological errors.
I do not have a problem with Jude.
I know I missed some stuff? Well let me know, if you have any other questions.
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Ruth
When the temple was destroyed in the second century animal sacrifices, for the most part, ended because their God ordained place to do so no longer existed. They believe that when Messiah comes for his 1000 years reign that the temple will be rebuilt and they will resume animal sacrifice.
That’s right! Minus the small typo 😉! I have given Kathy tons of scripture to back up the idea that messiah rebuilds the temple! But Paul says Anti Christ sits in the temple, all the Christians are going to mistake the Mashiach for anti Christ, cause Paul says they are being raptured!
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Thanks for the reply, Laurie. You answered most of my questions, so no worries.
I wasn’t aware of those particular issues in Hebrews — thanks for pointing them out. I was, however, aware of the authorship issues in “Peter’s” epistles, but wasn’t sure how you viewed them. I’m a little surprised that you accept Jude:
1) Are you aware that he quotes from the Book of Enoch?
I don’t think I fully understood your points about Acts.
2) Do you believe Acts and Luke were written by the same person?
3) Are you saying Acts is trying to be a warning sign to let other Christians know they shouldn’t trust Paul? Or are you saying Acts is not legit?
4) Finally, do you accept gLuke as genuine?
Thanks!
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I do believe in Luke and acts. I have never given much thought to if they had the same author or not? I guess I always assumed they did.
Yes, I believe that whoever wrote Acts, was using Philos rules for allegory.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12116-philo-judaeus#anchor10
Scroll down to attitude toward literal meaning to find the 21 rules.
Although I believe that the copy we have of Enoch today is pseudepigraphal, I believe it is possible that he did write a book, and its story’s were passed through oral tradition. I could be wrong though. I do not see the need for the new testament really. I believe in messiah, but I believe he was the Torah. I don’t know if that makes any sense, but that is what I believe.
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Laurie, just an FYI — it’s my understanding that the Book of Enoch is a conglomeration of writers and it was written over a period to several years. It most definitely is pseudepigraphic.
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period OF several years.
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It’s definitely a weird read. It talks about purgatory, and a lot of other things that are not in Torah. What did you think of it?
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I didn’t read the whole thing, it just seemed way out there! But I’m sure that’s how you all view the bible.
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“Do you need evidence that gravity exists Arch?” – Why yes, I do – fortunately, I don’t need to believe that it’s real, as that evidence is easily observable in the world around me. But then,
You, on the other hand, probably DO go to church every Sunday and sing about your beliefs, don’t you? Because you NEED the constant confirmation. You NEED everyone else there, to shore up your belief system, so you won’t have to think too much – but then, thinking too much is never going to be a serious problem for you, is it Kathy?
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“Arch, that’s what I wanted to say but feared it would sound too anti-government.” – yeah, well, sounding too anti-government has never been a big concern of mine, I once filed a lawsuit against the Secretary of the Army – I lost, but I tried.
The thing of it is, is, that in a democracy, we, the people, in effect GIVE our government permission to blackmail us, by common consensus, in order for the weak to be protected from the strong. Sometimes, as in the case of Little George W’s PATRIOT ACT, our government TAKES permission without asking.
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“If you would read what is given, you wouldn’t have to ask the same questions over and over” – if I had a DOLLAR for every time someone on this board has said that to her, I wouldn’t be sitting here posting, I’d be out driving around in my new Ferrari! Come on, somebody pony up a dollar! ANYbody –?
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“…when something falls off of a table it hits the floor” – Having fallen off a table, I can attest to that!
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“The feast that removes your sins, and makes them white as snow” – I have no need of a feast, as I have no sins. Sins require breaking the rules of some god, and as there are no gods, there are no sins. I’ve done some things I’m not proud of, and if I could take them back, I would, but they they were things I did that went against my own set of rules for myself, not those of some non-existent god.
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Wow, Laurie – you are a virtual repository of knowledge! If I ever get so far in my writing as the NT, I would love to pick your brain.
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“I don’t know if that makes any sense, but that is what I believe.” – Beliefs don’t have to make sense, as long as they’re personal – it’s when one tries to push their beliefs off on others, that validity is required. For example, I believe I’m sane, but it should be clear by now, that I make no effort to convince anyone else of that.
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Take note, Kathy – Laurie is a theist, with very strongly-held beliefs, but she is discussing those beliefs with us, rather than calling us names when we don’t agree with her. You will also note that everyone is being quite respectful with her, and that when asked a question, she does her best to give a straight, forthright answer. You could learn a lot from Laurie.
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Thanks Arch.
Are you writing a book, or did I misunderstand?
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Laurie, I haven’t read very much of Enoch either, but yes, definitely some weird stuff. I quoted him in my book because I believe his oulook on “hell” played a major role in how it is viewed today.
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Arch, Kathy has repeatedly told you she already knows everything she needs to know ! 🙂
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I am definitely planning to read your book Nan ☺. Can I ask how long it is?
I should have done that today! I hit my head this morning, and it made a 1 inch gash on my forehead. The hospital did a horrible job closing it up, and so it has been dripping down head and into my eye all day. That is why I have had so much time to comment here, I can’t stand up or talk without dripping! But that’s okay, my hubby says “hubby’s dig scars”.
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Laurie,
“The death on the cross was fulfillment of Passover. If you want to understand the symbolism of that event you need to study it out. I have already tried to explain this. ”
God sent Jesus to suffer and die on the cross.. for symbolism? I’m sorry but this doesn’t make sense.. it’s not rational. Which is obviously why it took so long to get an answer. This is the problem with any beliefs that stray from Christian teachings.. they don’t make sense under scrutiny.
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