I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
@arch,
I knew that you’d lost a daughter, but I didn’t know the circumstances. Once again, I’m very sorry for your loss. I can’t really imagine what that must be / have been like. I hope you’ll one day be able to finish your book.
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Paul’s explanation is far superior and reasonable than yours. And that’s why his books are included.. his explanations make sense.. and he’s backed up his testimony with his life. He went from killing Christians to becoming one.. and, surprise.. you all have no explanation for that either.. only accusations of him lying. I’m really curious to know why so many dislike Paul.. I doubt I’ll get an honest answer though.
I have a great explanation for that actually, one which I am sure I have explained before. When messiah was warning about the ravenous wolves and Pharisees, he was trying to bring to mind the prophecy in genesis 49. This prophecy is about Paul. He was from the tribe of Benjamin, he killed God’s people in the beginning, and is dividing them to this day. There are 40,000 different denominations in your church. Their differences in doctrine come from Paul, because he contradicts himself and Yahusha over and over.
And if you think a lie is all I have on Paul, you need to re-read my previous posts.
There are 12 thrones and 12 apostles. Do you think Paul will sit at one of those thrones? Will his name be on one of the twelve gates?
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“God would certainly be able to find an easier way in which His Son didn’t have to suffer horrifically.”
For once, Kathy, we agree – he could have dispensed with all of those stupid rules in the first place, like putting knowledge in the fruit of a tree and planting it in the center of a garden, then blaming two innocent kids for eating it. Then his boy could have grown up playing Angel B-ball, like a normal deity’s son, instead of having to think about being born of a virgin and getting crucified.
Personally, I try to stay as far away from virgins as possible. One of the funniest things I can imagine, is two virgins in bed: “That thing goes WHERE?!!!“
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Kathy, it may surprise you to know that I don’t dislike Paul at all. I don’t agree with him, of course, but I have a fairly positive view of him.
I think he was a pretty empathetic person. I think that he was devoutly Jewish, but being raised in Rome (if that’s true), he knew many Greek and Roman people that he greatly admired. Since many Jews believed in Heaven and Hell by that point (despite it not being taught in the OT), I think he was concerned about his friends that didn’t have access to God’s law. While he would have understood (as Ruth has pointed out) that Gentiles weren’t accountable to the full law, he likely believed that many of his Greek friends would still fall short of what God required.
At the same time that he struggled with these fears, he was involved with trying to eradicate Christianity. Naturally, he learned a lot about it as he went from place to place hunting Christians. One day, on his way to Damascus, he suffered heat stroke or something and had a vision of Jesus. It was all his imagination, of course, but it had a profound affect on him. And as he spent time thinking about what he’d “witnessed,” he finally saw a path forward for his Greek friends. He came to think that Jesus really had been the Messiah, and his death was not a failure, but a fulfillment. He became the ultimate sacrifice and Passover lamb, ushering in a new dispensation of God’s will. Now, because of Christ’s sacrifice, all people could be reconciled to God, not just the Jews.
I can’t prove that scenario, but I think it’s pretty likely. Or something like it.
But I don’t think the rest of us (other than Laurie) actually dislike Paul — we’re just saying that he seems to have hijacked Christianity. It’s really his religion more than Jesus’s.
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“I was hoping YOU’D know!”
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Arch posted this comment of mine..
““…you don’t have to provide evidence, if everybody knows it’s true.”
~~ Kathy (@kayms99) ~~”
I responded with a question that I *though* would help him understand my comment..
“Do you need evidence that gravity exists Arch?”
He responds with:
““Do you need evidence that gravity exists Arch?” – Why yes, I do – fortunately, I don’t need to believe that it’s real, as that evidence is easily observable in the world around me. ”
And Ruth says this:
“Do you need evidence that gravity exists Arch?
Ooh, me, me, me! I got this one. Yeah, Kathy, he does. The evidence is in the fact that we don’t float around, that when something falls off of a table it hits the floor. Gravity can be measured.”
Only further distorting the meaning of my comment and question.
See.. THIS is why it’s good to understand “CONTEXT”.
Do you even remember what the CONTEXT of my comment that you keep reposting is Arch??
Or do you just not care? It’s clear that you’re only interested in pushing your false narrative about the Christian who keeps proving you wrong.
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“I hope you’ll one day be able to finish your book.” – me too.
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But Kathy, it’s still true that we wouldn’t “believe” gravity exists if we didn’t have evidence. The context of your question doesn’t really change the answer…
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Ruth,
““And I want to ask.. are our laws “blackmail”? Is our govt. “blackmailing” us?” – yes, to both.
Arch, that’s what I wanted to say but feared it would sound too anti-government.”
Again, you both fail to grasp my point.
You feel “blackmailed” to do what is right?? The govt. is a “blackmailer” for “threatening” punishment if you harm someone or steal from them?
More liberal “reasoning”.. and evidence for the claim that liberals are morally challenged.
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Nate,
“But Kathy, it’s still true that we wouldn’t “believe” gravity exists if we didn’t have evidence. The context of your question doesn’t really change the answer…”
My comment is so far back now, but the context is there.. maybe Arch will man up and post the surrounding text.. aka context.
I fully understand your point Nate.. but it isn’t applicable to my comment and question.
If I remember correctly, my comment was in response to Arch wanting me to post proof that the prevailing belief among scholars over most of the last 2000 years is that the authors of the Gospels are those the books are named after. It *MAY* not be the case today, I’m not arguing for or against.. I don’t know.. but who is claiming that it wasn’t for most of history?? Not the majority.. why do I need to provide proof for something that everyone except Arch is in basic agreement on? Just like providing proof of gravity.. everyone agrees… there’s no need.
And Arch knew this.. but instead he prefers to push a false narrative about me.
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“It’s clear that you’re only interested in pushing your false narrative about the Christian who keeps proving you wrong.” – we’ll never know, I’ve never had a Christian prove me wrong.
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Kathy, throughout most of human history, it was accepted that the sun revolved around the earth. Should we just accept that today, since it was broadly accepted before? That’s the argument you’re making concerning the authorship of the gospels…
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Laurie,
“And if you think a lie is all I have on Paul, you need to re-read my previous posts.
There are 12 thrones and 12 apostles. Do you think Paul will sit at one of those thrones? Will his name be on one of the twelve gates?”
I’ll answer this after your “part 2” comes.. where you address the main point of my comment..
Why did God make His Son suffer?? What was the necessity for this??
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I don’t hate Paul. I think he is leading Christians down the wide path.
There is more evidence against him than for him
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“And Arch knew this.. but instead he prefers to push a false narrative about me.” – Oh, Kathy – NO one needs to push false narratives about you, you’re your own worst enemy. You make it clear to everyone with every word you type, that you spend as little time thinking as possible.
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“Kathy, throughout most of human history, it was accepted that the sun revolved around the earth. Should we just accept that today, since it was broadly accepted before? That’s the argument you’re making concerning the authorship of the gospels…”
Nate, this is diverting AWAY from my point.. about Arch’s dishonest accusation against me.. implying that people should believe what I claim without proof. I’m the rational one here.. I’d never expect that. I only argue that people “should” have an open objective mind. And I argue that logic and reason favors a Creator and it also favors Christianity as the explanation of who our Creator is.
As to your point.. no, I’m not claiming that you should accept anything based on what was believed in the past.. again, that’s irrational.. I wouldn’t suggest that. I am arguing that the evidence for the named being the authors STILL outweighs any evidence you have claimed of them not being the authors. There’s no compelling reasons to believe they weren’t the authors. BUT, I’m ALSO arguing that it doesn’t matter if they are not the authors.. that wouldn’t change the truth of the Gospels in any way.
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Laurie,
“I don’t hate Paul. I think he is leading Christians down the wide path.
There is more evidence against him than for him”
Laurie, how exactly is he doing this?? Please be specific.
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And the same goes for everyone who keeps reposting my comment where I claim I know all I need to know.
You’re all posting it out of context.. but again who cares.. honesty has never been that important.
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“Why did God make His Son suffer?? What was the necessity for this??” – Primarily because of his neediness, that compelled him to make pet people, then stupidity that caused him to create as harsh a punishment as possible for those who didn’t obey his every beck and call, and then realizing that he wasn’t going to have any pet people to adore him and salve his ego, if he sent them all to hell, he invented a work-around – his kid takes the punishment for everyone. This is why forethought is so important in planning.
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Nate,
“One day, on his way to Damascus, he suffered heat stroke or something and had a vision of Jesus. It was all his imagination, of course, but it had a profound affect on him. ”
Nate, in the passages it states that the others saw and heard something also. Is the writer lying? Did Paul lie?
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“I’m the rational one here.. ” – that HAS to be one of the funniest things I’ve ever heard!
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Arch, your comment above shows your ego and pride. It’s exactly what the Bible describes of people who reject God. The God who gave you your life and every good thing in it. You don’t want to acknowledge any of that, instead you prefer to judge Him, you prefer to focus on those “inconvenient” things you don’t want to do.
Again, do you feel at the “beck and call” of the govt. for having to do what is right? Do you resent everyone / thing that has authority over you? I’m guessing you do.. and so does Ruth, and Nan and William and every other liberal here.
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If I remember correctly, Paul doesn’t cover his Damascus road experience in any of his epistles, so we only have what the author of Acts thought about it. It’s hard to say what stories were floating around by the time Acts was written, so I’m inclined to think the author wasn’t lying so much as relating incorrect hearsay.
From your point of view, is the author of Acts saying that Jesus really did appear to Paul on the road to Damascus? Do you believe this actually happened, even though you view Paul as a false teacher?
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Sorry — I meant to address that last question to Laurie, not Kathy!
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You really hate it when your own words are used against you, don’t you Kathy? Ever since you’ve been here, you’ve been making outlandish statements, then later claiming you never made them and challenging anyone to go back through 2000 comments and find them, knowing full well that no one will bother. Now, someone copies what you say, and can play it back to you, at whatever time hand whatever context he chooses – kinda chaps, doesn’t it?
You know, I’m curious – you’ve been on this board for two months now – what do you think you’ve accomplished, in exchange for all your time? I’m sure you didn’t SET OUT to make a fool of yourself, it just happened because, well, you’re…you.
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