I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
“King David was a murderer, and an adulterer, but he was considered righteous by God.”
And don’t forget Lot: he was considered righteous even though he offered up his daughters for gang-rape and had sex with them in a cave.
“But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him.” (2 Peter 2:7, NLT)
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Your to busy trying to argue with me to try and understand what I believe.
Several of us have tried to explain to her that it would be more advantageous to her to attempt to understand the position she is attempting to argue against. How can she “debate” the issues if she hasn’t the faintest idea what they even are?
And don’t forget Lot:
And don’t forget Solomon who dabbled with other gods and had all those wives and concubines.
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Ruth,
“I challenge you, Kathy, to post any of Jesus’ teachings – the red letter words – that teach that one is saved by grace alone.”
First, I didn’t ask for all the verses to be posted again.. when I had originally made my request SEVERAL times before it was answered.. you turned a simple question that required a simple posting of the SPECIFIC verses into a long posting of repeating the verses and then adding a question for me.
You DIDN’T answer my question Ruth.. I don’t know of any of those verses where it’s talking about “the law”.. I DID post a verse that showed that Jesus was talking about following HIS words… NOT “the law”.
YOu said:
“This is coming from the literal translation from an interlinear Bible. Why would Jesus say to them depart from me “those working lawlessness” to people who had done “many good works” in his name? Because following the law is not considered a “good work”. No, your “good works” will not save you, but a Jew is not excused from following the Mitzvot. And gentiles are not excused from following the Noahide Commandments according to scripture.”
Ruth, I never claimed that we are excused from following the commandments… NEVER claimed that.
“I challenge you, Kathy, to post any of Jesus’ teachings – the red letter words – that teach that one is saved by grace alone.”
“Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.”
He DIDN’T say.. no one can come to the Father unless they do good works and follow the commandments.
And your point about none of those verses alluding to love and grace is another fail.. I NEVER asked for verses that state love or grace Ruth.. you posted obfuscation.. when you finally felt that you couldn’t avoid NOT answering my question any longer.
And you wonder why I didn’t respond. I’ve told all of you I have to be selective when answering, I just don’t have the time to deal with everyone’s deliberate ignorance and game playing dishonesty.
I’d still really like an answer to my question.. which of those verses SPECIFICALLY.. don’t repost all of them again.. supports Laurie’s claim that Jesus is condemning them for trying to get rid of the law. I was asking for the SUPPORTIVE text, the surrounding text.. aka the CONTEXT.
And “lawlessness” does not mean they want to get rid of the law.. it means they are disobeying God’s / Jesus’ commands.
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Laurie,
Yet again your comment leaves me asking if there’s a part 2. You STILL failed to give an answer to my question. How can you accuse me of not wanting to know what you believe when I’m ASKING YOU??? You are trying to tell me how to learn/ understand.. people have their own ways of learning and understanding. And that’s why questions are asked. But you aren’t answering my question. And then you try to put the blame on me. This is dishonest.. it’s deliberate obfuscation. I’ve lost count of how many times now I’ve asked you this question..
WHY did Jesus have to suffer and die on the cross? Why was it necessary? Telling me about the feasts is laughable.. this is a perfect example of why Jesus brought the changes that He did.. you are so focused on the law and feasts and symbolism, that you can’t even explain why Jesus had to suffer.. like you’ve never even thought about it.
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*sigh*
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The Way the Truth and the Life are hebraic idioms for Torah. This was a Jewish man speaking to Jews. I know you are smarter than you let on, this really isn’t complicated. The word lawless is anomia, it is a greek word, it has two meanings. The prefix is a negative particle in Greek, so putting them together it means negation of the law. Also out is a parallel to Deuteronomy 13:1-5 which defines the text quite clearly
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Last time Kathy, he suffered because this was the plan for redemption that YHWH established in the beginning!
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Do you get it now? I have said this repeatedly! I am trying to be nice, but this is having a negative impact on my character. This is not the example that I want to set for my Christian brothers and sisters, Jewish people, or anyone else. I think it is time to call it quits.
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Kathy,
Laurie is trying to help you out. While I don’t believe exactly as she does, she has done a very good job giving you TONS of scripture for you to read over to see where she is coming from and why she sees Paul as a false teacher.
On the liberal note, take a look over Jesus’ teachings and that of the early church described in Acts, looks pretty liberal or socialist to me.
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“I know you are smarter than you let on” – Frankly, Laurie, I don’t think she’s AS smart as she lets on.
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First, I didn’t ask for all the verses to be posted again.. when I had originally made my request SEVERAL times before it was answered.. you turned a simple question that required a simple posting of the SPECIFIC verses into a long posting of repeating the verses and then adding a question for me…
… which of those verses SPECIFICALLY.. don’t repost all of them again.. supports Laurie’s claim that Jesus is condemning them for trying to get rid of the law. I was asking for the SUPPORTIVE text, the surrounding text.. aka the CONTEXT.
You contradict yourself. You want context? I posted the supportive text, the surrounding test…aka the CONTEXT. How do you get context if you don’t look at the surrounding scripture? I posted and re-posted the entire portion of scripture for the express purpose of providing context. Jesus elaborated on the OT law. The teachings he gave were how to follow the law – not to just do the bare minimum.
SPECIFICALLY verses 21-27 support that claim. What Jesus taught was the law. Anyone who heard what he taught and did it was like a wise man who built his house on a solid foundation. You picked that specific verse out of context to try to prove a point about not being about the law when you said:
““24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:”
Jesus has taught clearly that it’s not about what you do on the outside but what is in your heart..
your motivation. Is your motivation to follow the law so you can get into heaven or is it to follow JESUS’ teachings that focus on our hearts.. our love.. that is in return for HIS love for us.. and HIS GRACE in dying so that we could be saved.
So you say this in response?
And your point about none of those verses alluding to love and grace is another fail.. I NEVER asked for verses that state love or grace Ruth.. you posted obfuscation.. when you finally felt that you couldn’t avoid NOT answering my question any longer.
I never said you asked for verses that state love or grace, but you did rip a scripture out of context to attempt to make that point. So in providing the actual context it doesn’t say anything about love or grace. In fact it doesn’t even say anything about a belief in Jesus nor his resurrection – it says because they were lawless he was denying them. It was clear that those he was directing this at did believe in him and did works in his name but they did not follow his teachings which were exactly expounding on the law.
Then you said:
And “lawlessness” does not mean they want to get rid of the law.. it means they are disobeying God’s / Jesus’ commands.
Jesus’ commands were the law – the OT law. Being lawless would mean not following the law. I’ve shown you this and Laurie has shown you this. We can explain it, we can’t understand it for you.
Then I posted this scripture in support of that idea as well:
Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. NKJV *emphasis mine
I think this is pretty self-evident. Most Christians claim that in Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection that all has been fulfilled. Clearly, though, all has not been fulfilled – even according to Christian theology. There is much more to come. Which means that not one pen stroke has passed from the law – nor the need to follow it.
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You said to Laurie:
But you aren’t answering my question. And then you try to put the blame on me. This is dishonest.. it’s deliberate obfuscation. I’ve lost count of how many times now I’ve asked you this question..
WHY did Jesus have to suffer and die on the cross? Why was it necessary? Telling me about the feasts is laughable.. this is a perfect example of why Jesus brought the changes that He did.. you are so focused on the law and feasts and symbolism, that you can’t even explain why Jesus had to suffer.. like you’ve never even thought about it.
Laurie is not trying to tell you how to learn. It is clear that you cannot be bothered to read your own Bible. That is, after all, all she asked you to do. The reason for this is because in order to understand her belief of why Jesus is the incarnation of the Passover you need to know all the symbolism of the Passover – not just that they ate a lamb, sprinkled it’s blood on their doorposts, and the Angel of Death passed over their houses. She is trying to explain to you that there is much more to Passover than that. And it would be easier if you were at least familiar with it when she explains her views to you.
Yes, it is time consuming. Bible study is if you expect to understand it at all.
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Now, like Laurie, I really am done responding to you. We all respond to you and then when you don’t like what we say you say we’re obfuscating, lying, being dishonest. Yet when you do it it’s because you simply don’t have the time.
You challenged Laurie to debate. I’m not sure why you thought you wanted that when you’re not even remotely familiar with the points of those you are challenging.
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Laurie,
“The Way the Truth and the Life are hebraic idioms for Torah. This was a Jewish man speaking to Jews. I know you are smarter than you let on, this really isn’t complicated. The word lawless is anomia, it is a greek word, it has two meanings. The prefix is a negative particle in Greek, so putting them together it means negation of the law. Also out is a parallel to Deuteronomy 13:1-5 which defines the text quite clearly”
This is not what I asked Laurie.. I’ve asked for surrounding text that supports this definition. Again, it’s all about the context. I’m asking for you to point out how the surrounding verses support this definition.
“Last time Kathy, he suffered because this was the plan for redemption that YHWH established in the beginning!”
No kidding! I agree 100%. You know that Christians AGREE with this.. AGAIN.. that is NOT what I’ve asked you. I’ve asked you to explain the specifics of this plan that you’ve stated does not agree with what Paul has claimed.
Are you claiming that because sacrifices couldn’t be made because there was no temple, so THAT’S why Jesus had to come and die? Because there was no temple?? Is this what you’re claiming?
I’m just trying to get the specific reasons? Why is this so hard for YOU to understand??
You all say Paul was wrong when he EXPLAINED the REASON for why Jesus had to die..
yet you all FAIL to give an alternate explanation. You give me Jewish definitions and talk about feasts.
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“I think it is time to call it quits.” – Before you do, Laurie, since I never know when you’ll pop up again, let me offer you one piece of construction advice: next time you lay tile on the ceiling, try wearing a football helmet with a face guard, and a little Kevlar couldn’t hurt —
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“On the liberal note, take a look over Jesus’ teachings and that of the early church described in Acts, looks pretty liberal or socialist to me.” – She has never been able to see that, Matt.
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Ruth,
“SPECIFICALLY verses 21-27 support that claim. What Jesus taught was the law.”
So, you’re saying that Jesus came to teach the law? To the Jews? Because they didn’t already know the law? And He needed to die after He had taught the law? For what reason??
Sorry Ruth but you are failing to defend your claims just like Laurie.
Jesus brought a NEW message.. hence the reason everyone wants to claim He was a liberal.
The law was fully known by the Jews.. what they didn’t understand was the REASON for the law. Jesus came to fulfil the law by showing God’s grace and love by paying for our sins for not following the law. But this was NOT in any way a reason to abolish the law.. and no one was calling for us to get rid of God’s commandments.
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“Yes, it is time consuming. Bible study is if you expect to understand it at all.” – She wants the Reader’s Digest version, Ruth, or even more preferably, the Cliff notes.
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““On the liberal note, take a look over Jesus’ teachings and that of the early church described in Acts, looks pretty liberal or socialist to me.” – She has never been able to see that, Matt.”
No, Arch, I see your confusion very well. You don’t know what liberal means and you don’t know what socialism means.
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Oh, and one last thing, Laurie – when you get all of that tiling gear on that I suggested, could you do me one more favor? Send us a selfie – PLEASE –!
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Ruth,
“She is trying to explain to you that there is much more to Passover than that. And it would be easier if you were at least familiar with it when she explains her views to you.”
No she isn’t.. she’s citing scripture but this is the reason why we have pastors .. to HELP us UNDERSTAND what the Bible says.. and that’s WHY I’m ASKING questions.. but she just keeps citing passages, Jewish terms and meanings and grammar. NOTHING that I’ve asked about.
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Ruth, now you know why I threw in the towel. There is just no reasoning with this girl. No matter what anyone says, no matter what SCRIPTURE is provided, no matter what research material is offered, she is so intent upon getting her “question” answered, she ignores everything else. Truly, it’s a hopeless endeavor.
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“this is the reason why we have pastors .. to HELP us UNDERSTAND what the Bible says..” – Scary, but that would imply that YOUR pastor knows almost as little about religion as you do.
But you’re right, sheep need shepherds.
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Kathy, why did God have anyone else teach the law after Moses? The same reason would apply to Jesus.
As far as why he needed to die, Laurie said that: it was part of God’s plan from the beginning. The sacrifices alone didn’t cover man’s sins; it required Jesus’ sacrifice. In other words, it’s the same reason most other Christians would give.
The difference between Laurie’s point and yours is that Laurie doesn’t believe the Old Law was to be jettisoned just because Christ finally made the key sacrifice. Just as prior sacrifices pointed to his, later sacrifices would as well. But when the temple was destroyed, there was no longer a sanctioned place to perform them.
Again, I don’t buy any of this; I’m just trying to help you understand it so you’ll stop hijacking the thread with the same questions over and over again. Perhaps now you’ll answer some of the ones that have been put to you? There’s a smorgasbord to choose from, so take your pick…
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I just hope that when the dust clears regarding the precise purpose of specific scriptures, we don’t lose sight of the fact that it’s still all about FREAKIN’ MAGIC!
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