I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
“If you think sacrifices were required in the OT, then you think Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t enough.”
No, that would only be true if I believed sacrifices were still needed.
The OT is to teach us about the importance of obeying and revering God.. the NT is about His
love and grace. Part one and part two of God’s plan.
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Then continuing to follow God’s law would still be about the importance of obeying and revering God.
These arguments can be made both ways all day long, Kathy. The sacrifices were always just a symbol. The OT sacrifices had no atoning value, unless you want to diminish the importance of Jesus’ sacrifice. Therefore, any sacrifices made after Jesus’ death would still have no atoning value, but would be made merely for symbolic purposes. Instead of pointing toward Jesus’ sacrifice, they would now be done as a reminder.
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““Why would you assume that you would know what God, the Creator of all, requires?” – I don’t think he’s doing that, Kathy – I think he’s saying that any other behavior on the part of your god would make him/her/it too bizarre to be worthy of worship.”
That’s what you and he and all atheists think.. but who are you compared to God? How much do you know compared to God? How can you make such judgments when you can’t even give a simple supposition/ idea on how you got here without there being a Supernatural force? It’s “bizarre” to you.. so what?? You and all of us are tiny brained human beings. But your / atheist thinking says that you give yourself so much more credit.. and God so much less credit.
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Nate,
“Then continuing to follow God’s law would still be about the importance of obeying and revering God.”
And no one has claimed that we shouldn’t follow God’s law.
“These arguments can be made both ways all day long, Kathy. The sacrifices were always just a symbol. The OT sacrifices had no atoning value, unless you want to diminish the importance of Jesus’ sacrifice. Therefore, any sacrifices made after Jesus’ death would still have no atoning value, but would be made merely for symbolic purposes. Instead of pointing toward Jesus’ sacrifice, they would now be done as a reminder.”
The sacrifices may have had some atoning value Nate, I’m just not sure… but the message is that it wasn’t enough.
You are trying to turn God’s plan into a plan about symbolism.. sorry Nate, but you failed.. again, it’s not about Jewish rituals, feasts etc, not anymore.. we can still do those things but they are not the way to the Father. Jesus didn’t become a man, suffer and die, just to be a symbol.
And God doesn’t want/need more bloodshed.. just to “remind” us.. it’s not necessary. Many want to believe God is “bloodthirsty” but Jesus just ruins all that for them.. God loves His creatures too.
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That’s what you and all Christians think Kathy… but who are you compared to the Flying Spaghetti Monster? How much do you know compared to the Flying Spaghetti Monster? How can you make such judgments when you can’t even give a simple supposition/ idea on how you got here without there being a Supernatural sauce? It’s “bizarre” to you.. so what?? You and all of us are tiny brained human beings. But your / Christian thinking says that you give yourself so much more credit, because you know the “one true God”… and you give the Flying Spaghetti Monster so much less credit.
I hate using the FSM argument Kathy, but every once in a while it serves a purpose. Pick any unknown you like: unicorns, vampires, Zeus, Thor, the FSM, God — you can play the same game with any of them. “We’re just puny humans; how can we question Zeus?!” When you point to the unknown, it actually is just like making no point at all. It demonstrates nothing.
And here’s the crazy thing: if there really is a god, before we start looking for any written message from him, there are already 2 things that must be from him by definition of his being god. The first is the nature of creation (which includes math and science), and the second is our ability to reason. If you forsake either of those (or both) in favor of some written text bandied about by ancient, superstitious, and anonymous people, you’ve already lost the game.
So for god’s sake (if one exists), don’t criticize someone for using their brain!
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How do you know what God requires, Kathy?
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“but who are you compared to God?” – Existing.
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“Many want to believe God is ‘bloodthirsty’ but Jesus just ruins all that for them..” – and yet, according to you, Jesus’ blood had to be shed to appease your god. Do I need to add “bloodthirsty” to that list of words you obviously don’t understand?
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Kathy wonders how Bible stories get written – this should give her some idea, but won’t:
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Hello Ach, How do they know,
“…but the wooden horse is an imaginative fable, perhaps inspired by the way ancient siege-engines were clothed with damp horse-hides to stop them being set alight by fire-arrows.”
Just curious about the science behind this.
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Hayden! You won’t believe this, but I was just wondering yesterday why you hadn’t shown up for awhile. If I run into Ach, I’ll tell him you’re looking for him —
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Nate, I know you wanted to shut this down long ago, and I campaigned against that idea – we both agree that trying to talk to Kathy is like talking to a stump – but I just got an email this morning from a friend, who said that commenting to theists like Kathy (may their number ever decrease) helped clarify, in her own mind, what her own beliefs were. Though an exercise in futility itself, threads like this DO have some beneficial residual effects.
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Here’s a word, Kathy, the definition of which you might want to look up – codependency —
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Laurie,
Sorry that I’ve been away for a little while,
This is going back in the thread a bit….
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Admittedly, this statement is from one of Paul’s letters (1 Corinthians 14:33) so you may see this differently Laurie.
But I wouldn’t call Paul’s writings a contradiction to the Gospels.
Paul’s letter here seems to be referring to Prophecy within the members of the Church (1 Corinthians 14:30-33).
Hope your head is feeling better
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Thanks portal, my head is feeling pretty good! I’m actually getting ready to leave for synagogue now.
Kathy,
Let’s try something new, as repeating myself over and over is starting to make me feel as little insane.
Are you aware that Paul kept the feasts? Just incase you are not familiar with the order of events in the new testament, I wanted to let you know that Paul came along several years after the resurrection. That means that even though messiah had already been crucified, he was still attending the feasts, and the sacrifices that went along with that.
I wish you would go through the last few comments that Nate posted and your replies, because you are not being very logical.
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A little insane*
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Nate,
“I hate using the FSM argument Kathy, but every once in a while it serves a purpose. Pick any unknown you like: unicorns, vampires, Zeus, Thor, the FSM, God — you can play the same game with any of them. “We’re just puny humans; how can we question Zeus?!” When you point to the unknown, it actually is just like making no point at all. It demonstrates nothing.”
Nate, Nate, Nate.. what will it take for you to grasp the huge differences between the fsm and the God of the Bible? I hope you are never chosen to serve on a jury because you would be utterly useless.
Seriously.. after all our debating that you still don’t understand the meaning of evidence and what makes it compelling is baffling to me.
If you can show me how the fsm or any of those other examples have comparable evidence, I’ll take back what I just said.. otherwise, it stands Nate.. you don’t understand the meaning and value of evidence.
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Nate, cont..
“And here’s the crazy thing: if there really is a god, before we start looking for any written message from him, there are already 2 things that must be from him by definition of his being god. The first is the nature of creation (which includes math and science), and the second is our ability to reason. If you forsake either of those (or both) in favor of some written text bandied about by ancient, superstitious, and anonymous people, you’ve already lost the game.
So for god’s sake (if one exists), don’t criticize someone for using their brain!”
Nate, how does our ability to reason have any affect on if God exists or not? It seems like I’m
the only one who is truly using my brain.
And how do you know that creation is not from the God of the Bible?? You don’t know this.
So, are you saying we “must” know before God can be real? You aren’t making sense.
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“How do you know what God requires, Kathy?”
From the Bible, Nate.
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Kathy, of course there’s evidence for the FSM. We exist don’t we? No one knows what started our existence; therefore, a belief that the FSM did it I’d as good an explanation as any other. Certainly better than those atheists who just say they don’t know — what kind of answer is that?!
After all, can you prove the FSM didn’t create everything?
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Wait, the same Bible where Jesus says heaven and earth will pass away before the tiniest aspect of the law ever does?
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Arch,
“Nate, I know you wanted to shut this down long ago, and I campaigned against that idea – we both agree that trying to talk to Kathy is like talking to a stump – but I just got an email this morning from a friend, who said that commenting to theists like Kathy (may their number ever decrease) helped clarify, in her own mind, what her own beliefs were. Though an exercise in futility itself, threads like this DO have some beneficial residual effects.”
Arch, I have no doubt that for many, the more I point out their faulty beliefs and reasoning,
the MORE they will hold on to their beliefs.. it’s that pride thing.. it’s a vicious cycle that only God and His wisdom can free you from.
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It doesn’t. But here’s your problem: you’ve assumed the Christian god exists without examining the evidence first. How do I know? Because when someone makes an argument based on logic, like a merciful god would not barbecue people for an eternity or command genocide, you say “who are you to question God?”
That shows that you’ve short-circuited your reason in favor of ancient superstition. When people make objections like the one above, they’re not rejecting, rebelling against, or even questioning God, they’re questioning the people who are claiming to speak for him. Let God speak for himself! Surely he’s capable?
Remember the test that Elijah made for the prophets of Baal, where he let them take most of a day to call on Baal to light a sacrifice they had prepared for him? Baal never delivered. God did it as soon as Elijah asked, and did it to such an extent that it incinerated the sacrifice, the wood, the altar, and even a trench full of water.
Has it ever occurred to you that if we performed that same test today, God would fail? Yet you criticize us for questioning the stories we’re told about this God? Why not criticize Elijah for questioning the prophets of Baal?
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Oh, Kathy. I feel sorry for you that you have such a warped impression of how this conversation has been going… Out of everyone on this thread, you’ve likely done the most damage to Christianity.
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Oh, and Arch — thanks for that comment. I really appreciate it, and it does make me feel good about keeping these threads going for so long. Who knows, maybe we’ll even extend it again, since the comments are getting so numerous?
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