I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
Laurie,
“Kathy,
Let’s try something new, as repeating myself over and over is starting to make me feel as little insane.”
Laurie, then don’t keep repeating yourself.. clearly what you are telling me isn’t answering my questions. I still don’t understand why Jesus had to suffer and die. Nate’s response came close to answering for you.. but it still doesn’t make sense. Jesus had to suffer and die so that we could continue to do what has been done all along? That wasn’t enough? but now WITH Jesus suffering, all of it is now “enough”? Jesus’ suffering wasn’t enough, we need animal sacrifices and we need to still obey the law or we cannot be saved. This makes no sense.
I want you to post passages Laurie.. but only the ones that answer my questions. If a Jewish person was to ask me, I’d point them to Paul’s explanation. You still haven’t given me an explanation.. only rituals.. and that’s what Jesus taught was/ became superficial and was not enough.
“Are you aware that Paul kept the feasts? Just incase you are not familiar with the order of events in the new testament, I wanted to let you know that Paul came along several years after the resurrection. That means that even though messiah had already been crucified, he was still attending the feasts, and the sacrifices that went along with that.”
Are you saying that Paul did so before he converted? If he did so after, so? Again, no one is saying we shouldn’t do these things.. but if you are trusting in them to save you, THAT’S where the problem is.
WE are to trust in Jesus! Laurie, you’ve spoken volumes about the law and the feasts.. and next to nothing about Jesus’ sacrifice. You prove my point.
“I wish you would go through the last few comments that Nate posted and your replies, because you are not being very logical.”
That’s fine Laurie, and I can say the very same about your replies. The difference is that I’m answering your questions and I’m backing up my claims with reason and logic. If you think otherwise, then challenge me on those points. That’s the way it is SUPPOSED to work. I wish you all would ask more questions.. like Nate did earlier.. that was perfect.
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Nate,
“Nate, how does our ability to reason have any affect on if God exists or not?
It doesn’t.”
(ok, that settles your incorrect claim of the 2 things required for God to be real)..
But here’s your problem: you’ve assumed the Christian god exists without examining the evidence first. How do I know? Because when someone makes an argument based on logic, like a merciful god would not barbecue people for an eternity or command genocide, you say “who are you to question God?”
Nate, what have I JUST typed to you in my first comments of the day? They were comments about EVIDENCE. And then you proceed to accuse me of making an assumption of God’s existence without examining the evidence.. um.. huh? You keep showing what the problem is here.. why there are thousands of comments.. one side isn’t listening/ grasping the valid points being made.. you’re the one who is making assumptions Nate, and no matter how many times I point out these errors, it seems to make NO DIFFERENCE.
So, because you see God’s punishment as too harsh, that means He couldn’t be real.?
You’re basing your beliefs on your own reasoning based on your very LIMITED understanding of the total picture.. again don’t you think the Creator of the universe might be more complicated and have more depth than you are able to understand?
Basically, your point shows that you are judging God.. you’ve decided that He is wrong. This is classic atheist/ liberal thinking.. and it’s based on pride and ego.
You would be much better off basing your judgments on the science and the validity of the Bible.. and then if you don’t understand God’s decisions in regards to us, just accepting it.. especially since there’s nothing you can do about it. This requires trust in God.. the very God who gave His Son to save YOU. So, trusting Him is not a lot to ask.
“”That shows that you’ve short-circuited your reason in favor of ancient superstition. When people make objections like the one above, they’re not rejecting, rebelling against, or even questioning God, they’re questioning the people who are claiming to speak for him. Let God speak for himself! Surely he’s capable?”
And we’ve been over this several times also..
God has chosen to reveal Himself to us through the written word/ the Bible.
He clearly decided to reveal Himself to those people in the beginning in a different way..
so that there would be something to write about to teach us and to reveal God to us.
This is a perfect plan Nate.. you can assess the evidence and decide for yourself.. if you don’t want to accept it, you can find excuses, if you do, you’ll find answers.
But instead of realizing this perfect plan, you ask/ no you demand that God reveal Himself, YOUR way. Your pride and ego and lack of humility shows itself over and over.. and you are blind to it… and again, this is what the Bible states over and over.. people will be blinded to the Truth. Which, of course, you will judge God on that also.. but it’s real simple Nate, if you chose to be objective and seek God honestly, you wouldn’t be blinded.
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God could certainly have an everlasting torture set up for people who don’t believe in him. It would be his prerogative as God.
HOWEVER, such a god can’t also be referred to as infinitely loving or merciful, because the definitions of those terms simply can’t refer to someone who runs a cosmic concentration camp.
There are ways around this: perhaps there really is no Hell; perhaps Hell is just talked about figuratively; perhaps God really isn’t 100% good. Nevertheless, as long as someone is claiming that an omni-benevolent god exists and said god’s gonna fry him some sinners throughout eternity, then non-believers have a good argument.
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What can I say? A god that’s incapable of incontrovertibly convincing non-believers into acknowledge it even exists isn’t much of a god, is it?
And the repeated charge that atheists are wrong to pronounce judgment against God’s character is sheer hypocrisy given that theists must by necessity pronounce judgment in favor of God’s character. The knife cuts both ways: if judging God is deemed wrong, then it’s wrong for both sides.
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Oh, Nate, how can you still be denying the existence of an omni-benevolent creator who also likes the smell of burned flesh?
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And the repeated charge that atheists are wrong to pronounce judgment against God’s character is sheer hypocrisy given that theists must by necessity pronounce judgment in favor of God’s character.
You’re right, Ron, but I don’t even think that’s what the argument is here. I’m fairly certain that I’ve read it right in that even if God has some…unsavory characteristics we’d still do well to worship him since he has the power to torch us for eternity. And he created us so that means he can treat us any old way he wants to and it’s totally cool.
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Ruth,
“Oh, Nate, how can you still be denying the existence of an omni-benevolent creator who also likes the smell of burned flesh?”
Ruth, you are lying if you claim you don’t like the smell when you drive by a steakhouse.
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Ruth, you are lying if you claim you don’t like the smell when you drive by a steakhouse.
Yes, but I’m just a puny human. Who am I compared to the greatness of your God?
Seriously, have you never smelled the aroma of burning human flesh? Count your blessings.
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“A little insane*” – she has that effect on most of us —
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“Nate.. you don’t understand the meaning and value of evidence.”
Words that Kathy Doesn’t Understand
1. Objectivity
2. Proof
3. Fact
4. Evidence
5. Compelling
6. Debate
7. Truth
8. Hearsay
9. Analogy
10. Obfuscate
11. Logical
12. Context
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What do you base the claim on that God likes the smell of burning human flesh?
You continue to show your bias Ruth. You accuse God of things that just aren’t true.
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“It seems like I’m the only one who is truly using my brain.”
Oh, I don’t think anyone here has ever accused you of doing THAT —
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“Nevertheless, as long as someone is claiming that an omni-benevolent god exists and said god’s gonna fry him some sinners throughout eternity, then non-believers have a good argument.”
Nate, I don’t deny that God’s eternal punishment is hard to understand. But you ignored my suggestion to not focus on what you can’t accept or understand and instead focus on the question of whether He exists or not based on the evidence. Because, all you’re doing is questioning God.. not His existence. And where do you think that will get you?? I guarantee you that if you don’t understand now, you will eventually but then it will be too late. You failed to trust God and decided to judge Him instead.
I don’t know why this is so hard to understand.
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“From the Bible, Nate.”
A “written text bandied about by ancient, superstitious, and anonymous people” – do you not see the circular reasoning, Kathy? OK, You asked for it —
Words that Kathy Doesn’t Understand
1. Objectivity
2. Proof
3. Fact
4. Evidence
5. Compelling
6. Debate
7. Truth
8. Hearsay
9. Analogy
10. Obfuscate
11. Logical
12. Context
13. Circular Reasoning
And the list grows long, la de da de da de dee —
(to the tune of “The Beat Goes On”)
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@Kathy,
You have been told over and over that we are not questioning any gods. We do not believe they exist Kathy. We are questioning the ancient uneducated and superstitious people who wrote the bible.
And we also don’t know why what we keep telling you over and over is so hard to understand.
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“Arch, I have no doubt that for many, the more I point out their faulty beliefs and reasoning,
the MORE they will hold on to their beliefs.. it’s that pride thing..”
Isn’t that what has driven you to waste your time here for the past two months? You really must not have a real life, do you?
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“I wish you all would ask more questions.. like Nate did earlier.. that was perfect.” – We’ve asked you hundreds of questions, that you’ve ignored.
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Arch,
“How do you know what God requires, Kathy?”
“From the Bible, Nate.”
A “written text bandied about by ancient, superstitious, and anonymous people” – do you not see the circular reasoning, Kathy? OK, You asked for it —
Arch, you fail to understand that the Bible is credentialed.. Nate’s description is wrong.
He, as do you and others here, simply lack honest objectivity.
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Well, perhaps Kathy is right. According to Isaiah 1:11-14, God no longer derives satisfaction from the smell of BBQ and constant veneration:
However, this next part probably won’t sit too well with the “GOP Jesus” crowd:
IOW… End the political corruption (see v. 23) and fight for the rights of the oppressed, and all will be forgiven. No sacrifices required.
Maybe this God isn’t so bad after all. Maybe he’s actually **GASP** A LIBERAL!!
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“Basically, your point shows that you are judging God.. you’ve decided that He is wrong. This is classic atheist/ liberal thinking.. and it’s based on pride and ego.”
Your god doesn’t exist, and you can’t prove that he/she/it does – we’re judging the anonymous, superstitious, ignorant men who fabricated his/her/it’s existence.
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Kathy,
One more question for you. If there was solid, non deniable proof that God exists, why would you need faith?
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“What do you base the claim on that God likes the smell of burning human flesh?”
Genesis 8:21- no one specified “human,” but one burned flesh smells a lot like any other.
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“Arch, you fail to understand that the Bible is credentialed..”
Proof, please —
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no one specified “human,” but one burned flesh smells a lot like any other.
I kinda did, arch. But you’re right, and burning flesh doesn’t smell like steak. At least I don’t like my steak that well-done. Cut off the horns and brown it on both sides is near enough.
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Ron, you’ve convinced me – the Bible’s god is a Democrat! I can hardly wait to see what he does to the Tea Party! That certainly explains why Romney lost the election!
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