I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
“burning flesh doesn’t smell like steak”
It doesn’t take much time in a napalmed village to know that’s right. Besides, the aroma you smell, passing a steakhouse, is mostly spices and basting, not flesh.
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Kathy,
Re: September 6, 2014 at 7:00 pm:
Great. Now use your *#$&# brain to ask the right questions, like, “does the claim of eternal punishment for disbelief really, truly seem justified?” And when you find your human compassion, and realize that it’s probably* not, then you can ask whether a loving god would actually do such a thing–and whether what you’ve been taught about the meaning and origins of the Bible is actually true.
Maybe it would be a good suggestion, if you actually had been presenting evidence. Maybe.
If you want to get back to the evidence, then you can address the post itself–Nate’s reposting of William’s comment. But all five of your points have been torn down repeatedly in these discussions.
This is flat-out wrong, and I’m not sure what kind of thinking gets you to that conclusion.
Nice threat by proxy. 🙄 Without evidence.
No; we make a judgement of the likelihood of Yahweh’s existence based on the nature of the claims and the lack of evidence.
We agree, in a manner of speaking…
* I say “probably” not, because I figure if you’re going to get there, you won’t start with a firm no, but a soft one–even if the truth is a firm one.
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Arch, I think you may be adding “credentials” to the list soon.
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Kathy, from your last few comments in particular, it almost makes me wonder if you’ve been trolling us for…how long’s it been now–two months?
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I have tried to explain this so many times, I think out of everyone here, you are the only one that doesn’t get it. Here is an analogy, that might help.
Let’s say I was going to build a house, and I made a set of plans. The plans are great, but they don’t just make a house appear. I follow the plans, and get about half way done. Now because I failed to finish the plans, my house is uninhabitable. The plans were still good, and would produce a perfect house, if they were completed.
The plan of redemption is layed out in the 7 feasts. The day of atonement, which is what atones for your sins is part of the fall feasts, and that has not happened yet. That is why messiah must come again. That is why there is still sin, and suffering. The restoration of all things has not happened yet. The plan is not finished, you can not live in the house!
Now you said that I have not provided scripture, and that is not true. You may not have read my scripture, but I provided it none the less.
The messiah is the Word, he is the Torah. I have said volumes more than you have about our messiah. He was more than his death. And yes, Paul attended the feasts after his conversion.
You are trying to change your story now? In the beginning you said the law was done away with and we don’t need it. Now you say you never said that?
This is laughable! Really!?!
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“Now you said that I have not provided scripture, and that is not true. You may not have read my scripture, but I provided it none the less.”
You’ll learn, Laurie, if you hang around long enough, that Kathy is not a big reader.
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Kathy, everyone else has already sufficiently answered anything I might have said in reply to you. I’ll only add one more thing, and it’s in reference to this statement you made:
You actually misunderstand what my issues with Christianity are. To quote Mark Twain:
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“You’ll learn, Laurie, if you hang around long enough, that Kathy is not a big reader.” – But then again, why would you be when you can say about yourself, “I know all I NEED to know“?
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I kinda hope Nate does close this thread, partially because I do think it is damaging to Christians, but mostly because I am stubborn and can’t seem to stay away!
I feel like, contrary to Kathy’s opinion, I have articulated my thoughts well enough. But she never seems to get it. I don’t really expect all the atheist here to get my thoughts, but I would expect a Christian to understand… whether they agree or not!
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You were a Christian once, right arch? You get it right? I know you don’t agree, but you can still see it from my perspective.
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All she does is post scripture passages but can’t seem to articulate anything in her own words.
Rude
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“…partially because I do think it is damaging to Christians” – Yeah, I’ve lost a lot of sleep over that myself —
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Thanks Arch, you never fail to be a jerk! I should have seen that coming though I guess
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“You were a Christian once, right arch? You get it right? I know you don’t agree, but you can still see it from my perspective.”
By the time I was twelve, Laurie, I was already questioning – recovery had begun – if it requires magic, it ain’t real. I’m not gonna get that selfie of you in a football helmet, gluing travertine to your ceiling now, am I? I really think that would have gone viral.
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“All she does is post scripture passages but can’t seem to articulate anything in her own words.” – she HAS no “own words,” she’s been told what to believe and what to think all her life – the concept of thinking for herself is foreign to her.
YOUR mind, on the other hand, is impressive – each of your parent’s beliefs differ from your own – you have clearly chosen your own direction, and that’s all that most of us advocate – freedom of thought.
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Nope! I just decided, it ain’t happenin! 😄
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“Thanks Arch, you never fail to be a jerk!” – Consistency is a VERY positive attribute!
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Laurie,
“The plan of redemption is layed out in the 7 feasts. The day of atonement, which is what atones for your sins is part of the fall feasts, and that has not happened yet. That is why messiah must come again. That is why there is still sin, and suffering. The restoration of all things has not happened yet. The plan is not finished, you can not live in the house!”
Laurie, this is another fail. It’s the same stuff you’ve said before… but at least this time you did reveal something new.. it’s apparent that you don’t believe that Jesus’ sacrifice is enough to atone for our sins. And why is that? Because that’s not the way the “plan” was laid out.
So, here’s the problem, either Jesus and His suffering is not as important as the 7 feast plan, the symbolism etc.. or the plan is based on REASON.. BUT, I’ve asked you over and over now WHAT that reason is.. and you just continue to tell me about the feasts and symbolism and now “the 7 feast plan”. And I’m still left asking WHY. Paul explains WHY Laurie.. he gives an explanation for why the old way was faulty and why we needed Jesus. You don’t say why Jesus needed to die.. you’ve only made it even more puzzling by admitting that Jesus’ sacrifice isn’t enough.
I fully understand how plans work.. the steps that work towards the completion.. you didn’t need to explain that to me. Just please explain Jesus’ place in this plan.. why He had to suffer and die. Why couldn’t God have a plan that didn’t require Jesus’ crucifixion?
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😄😁😃😄 he he he! I can’t tell you how hard this made my husband laugh! I read him some previous comments in the car on the way home from synagogue, and he said “don’t even respond to her honey, you know she is just gonna say…. blah blah blah pretty much exactly what you just said” and after reading this, I got the dreaded “I told you so!!!”
Can’t stop laughing!
Goodnight all! 😉
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Nate,
“Kathy, everyone else has already sufficiently answered anything I might have said in reply to you.”
No, he didn’t Nate. Evidence for the Truth of the Bible exists. Just because you don’t WANT to acknowledge it, it still exists and is compelling. Again, it’s why Christianity has so many followers.. and the next largest religion tends to kill those who don’t follow.
“I’ll only add one more thing, and it’s in reference to this statement you made:
But you ignored my suggestion to not focus on what you can’t accept or understand and instead focus on the question of whether He exists or not based on the evidence.
You actually misunderstand what my issues with Christianity are. To quote Mark Twain:
It ain’t those parts of the Bible that I can’t understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand.”
But you don’t understand those parts either Nate, the problem is that you think you do. Your
only way of understanding is by applying your own bias. If it goes against what you want to believe, then you reject it. You don’t apply honest objectivity so you CAN understand what the TRUTH is, whatever it may be.
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You don’t apply honest objectivity either.
If you would have offered some real evidence for what you believe, I would have backed you up, and this conversation might have went some where.
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Laurie, you really shouldn’t be laughing.. you’ve devoted so much time and energy to learning your beliefs yet it’s clear that you don’t really understand them.
I’ve told my family about your beliefs and they responded the same way your husband did. But I told them.. “she really seems smart though.. she’s very knowledgeable”.
And this is a common liberal (not saying *you* are a liberal) belief/ practice. They believe that the more you read, the more you memorize, the more facts and information you know, the higher the level of advanced education.. the smarter you are. And this is just not the case. You’ve got to understand the reasoning and logic.. if you don’t have that, it’s pointless. You’re just memorizing “steps”.
Paul GIVES the reasoning for Jesus’ sacrifice. I have no clue what the reasoning is for what you adhere to Laurie.. and it seems that you really don’t either. Again, Laurie, it’s about Jesus.. NOT the feasts and laws and symbolism.
HE is the way.. NOT the Torah.
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Why couldn’t God have a plan that didn’t require Jesus’ crucifixion?
Indeed! It’s the most asinine plan ever conceived when forgiveness requires nothing further than the extension of forgiveness. If fallible humans can do it, why can’t an infallible god?
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Really Ron?
If someone wronged you over and over and over, a thousand times over.. that forgiveness should just be extended over and over and over… it’s as “simple” as that? Yeah right.
See, this is what I mean, you all don’t know enough to judge God and how He has chosen to
deal with sin. You have no clue.. yet you all think you do. That’s arrogance and pride.
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Hey Nate, I just wanted to comment that I actually missed an entire page of this nightmare. I feel pretty good about that because now I am ready for more Kathy. God I must hate myself. God bless.
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@The “BIRD”
“If I run into Ach, I’ll tell him you’re looking for him –”
Now you see what sarcasm gets you young man?
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@Ron,
Sorry, I saw this and I had to reply.
“What can I say? A god that’s incapable of incontrovertibly convincing non-believers into acknowledge it even exists isn’t much of a god, is it?”
Unless he really is an all loving God who cares more about how you are doing as apposed to giving him credit for stuff. But that God wouldn’t have a Hell. Hmm.
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Side note; Ruth is a vegetarian?! Well I guess I have to stop following HER blog.
Meat is murder… tasty, tasty murder.
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Just because I AM that stupid! @Kathy
“Arch, you fail to understand that the Bible is credentialed.. Nate’s description is wrong.
He, as do you and others here, simply lack honest objectivity.”
No, it really isn’t. Have you read Nan’s book? Cause Ima gonna plug it baby!
Phenomenal! I loved this thing, but then I don’t worship the Bible soooooo yeah.
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@Ron, “Maybe this God isn’t so bad after all. Maybe he’s actually **GASP** A LIBERAL!!”
YOU BASTARD!
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@Laurie,
“I feel like, contrary to Kathy’s opinion, I have articulated my thoughts well enough. But she never seems to get it. I don’t really expect all the atheist here to get my thoughts, but I would expect a Christian to understand… whether they agree or not!”
DAMN IT! Now I gotta go back and read all of Laurie’s posts. Thanks for that.
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