I may live to regret this, but I’ve decided to extend this never-ending conversation once again.
Kathy, this time, it would be a nice change of pace if you would actually address what William has repeatedly been saying to you:
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
About that last point, if the Bible had been written by 1500 people scattered across the globe, who didn’t know one another, and they did it in 40 days, then you’d really have something incredible. But 40-ish people, all familiar with the Jewish god, and writing over a long period of time with the previous writings as reference, is not that impressive.
Finding Truth 
Yeah, arch — that story about Jacob and Esau always bothered me. In fact, every story about Jacob and Esau shows Esau to be the more honorable! He comes home from hunting for several days, is famished, but his brother won’t give him anything to eat without first selling his birthright. Then Rebecca helps Jacob trick Isaac into bestowing the firstborn’s blessing onto him instead of Esau.
What does it say about God’s character that “Jacob have I loved”?
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“Jesus’ disciples.. again.. either they were all delusional or they are lying.” – which disciples of Yeshua wrote anything, Kathy?
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Kathy,
KC is right. You asked about any page from the Bible. Several of us have given you a number of examples.
Furthermore, if you want to talk about the gospels, simply show me where one of them says who its author is. Chapter and verse, please.
Thanks
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(Thanks to Carmen’s heroic efforts!)
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Hey Arch , don’t forget Ol Jacob’s reverse tithing scheme. He asks God to bless him FIRST then says he will give back a tenth. Wow , that took a lot of faith.
Gen 28 :20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear 21 so that I return safely to my father’s household, then the Lord[b] will be my God 22 and[c] this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God’s house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth.”
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Kathy,
The scriptures do not say anything about Jesus “telling” the disciples what he prayed. Stick to the Word. You are doing exactly what you accuse everyone else of doing.
I did not accuse the Gospel authors of lying. You are putting words into my mouth/writing. I asked some pertinent questions that come naturally to a person’s mind when they read this story. Can you answer them? Especially since you consistently
insist the gospel writers were actual witnesses to what they wrote about.
If they were not witnesses, then it’s a made-up story. If they were the actual disciples, we’re back to the original question. How did they know what Jesus prayed?
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Kathy, imagine that you were a Christian in the year 70 AD. You never knew Jesus or his immediate disciples, but you were brought into the fold by your association with some other Greek Christians living in Asia Minor (where you live). Imagine that in your group, you’re one of the only Christians who can write. So far, you haven’t seen much of Jesus’ story written down, maybe just a collection of his sayings, but nothing that actually contains the full gospel story as you’ve heard it.
Can you see how such a person might feel compelled to write down this all-important message? Can you see how a person like that might write it all down, believing it to be true and accurate, yet have no actual first hand knowledge of any of it?
Believe it or not, most scholars believe the gospels were written by such people. Well-meaning, devout, but not in a position to actually know if what they wrote was true. They’re much like Christians today, who write commentaries or blogs that talk about the truth of Christianity, but they never knew Jesus or his disciples.
And scholars don’t believe this because they want to, but because of evidence. None of the gospels were written in the first person, and all of them are anonymous. Matthew and Luke borrow verbatim from Mark, and Matthew shouldn’t have needed to if he were an actual disciple that knew Jesus. The gospels contradict one another in certain details, they were written about 40 or more years after Jesus’ death, and they all seem to have been written in Greek, while the original disciples were illiterate men who spoke Aramaic.
There’s really no reason to think the gospels were actually written by disciples, yet you hold that as the default position. I get it — it’s what I was taught too. But it doesn’t match the evidence.
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Nate and Kathy,
This is what the Great Humanitarian and Devout Christian Dr Albert Schweitzer was taught too. And yet there were questions which nagged him enough he did his own research and wrote a book, “The Quest for the Historical Jesus”.
Here is the jest of his book. “Schweitzer wrote that Jesus and his followers expected the imminent end of the world.[2] He became very focused on the study and cross referencing of the many Biblical verses promising the return of the Son of Man and the exact details of this urgent event, as it was originally believed that it would unfold. He noted that in the gospel of Mark, Jesus speaks of a “tribulation,” with nation rising against nation, false prophets, earthquakes, stars falling from the sky, and the coming of the Son of Man “in the clouds with great power and glory.” Jesus even tells his disciples when all this will happen: “Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.” (Mark 13:30) The same story is told in the gospel of Matthew, with Jesus promising his rapid return as the Son of Man, and again saying: “Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” Even St. Paul believed these things, Schweitzer observes (e.g. 1 Thessalonians 4), and Schweitzer concludes that Christians of the first century theology literally believed in the imminent fulfillment of Jesus’ promise.
Schweitzer concludes that critical 1st century theology has been ignored by the faithful. Almost all early followers are known to have been illiterate. Only those few literate leaders, then in power, could be aware of the critical unfulfilled First Century promise indivisible from the original theology of Jesus. Schweitzer observes that the early church leaders introduced a modified theology, once the prompt return of Jesus failed to occur. Obviously, the early leaders would surely lose power, and their employment, if they failed to modify the original theology.
Schweitzer writes that the many modern versions of Christianity deliberately ignore the urgency of the message that Jesus proclaimed. Each new generation hopes to be the one to see the world destroyed, another world coming, and the saints governing a new earth. Schweitzer thus concludes that the First Century theology, originating in the lifetimes of those who first followed Jesus, is both incompatible and very different from those beliefs later made official by the Roman Emperor Constantine in 325 CE.
Schweitzer established his reputation further as a New Testament scholar with other theological studies including The Psychiatric Study of Jesus (1911) and his two studies of the apostle Paul, Paul and his Interpreters, and the more complete The Mysticism of Paul the Apostle (1930). This examined the eschatological beliefs of Paul and (through this) the message of the New Testament.”
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Sorry, the jest of Schweitzer’s book was from wiki.
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“Schweitzer observes that the early church leaders introduced a modified theology, once the prompt return of Jesus failed to occur. Obviously, the early leaders would surely lose power, and their employment, if they failed to modify the original theology.”
Why do you think that for a thousand years – 500-1500 CE, The Church, upon penalty of death, forbade the possession of any Bibles written in any language than Latin. in a Europe where few people read, and far fewer read Latin?
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Nate,
“Kathy,
KC is right. You asked about any page from the Bible. Several of us have given you a number of examples.
Furthermore, if you want to talk about the gospels, simply show me where one of them says who its author is. Chapter and verse, please.
Thanks”
No one has given me a page.. please give me a specific page, I’ll read it and see if your claim that even though what they’re writing is a lie (according to you), they can believe it as truth.
And I don’t claim that the authors of the Gospels are identified in the books. Again, I ask.. so?
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Yes you do, Kathy. You maintain that the gospels were written by Jesus’ immediate disciples. So which ones, and where do we get this information?
You want an actual page of the Bible? Then let’s just use the first one. Look at Genesis 1 and tell me how it would be impossible for someone to write that without knowing for sure that it was completely accurate.
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Nan,
“How did they know what Jesus prayed?”
You assume something didn’t happen because scripture didn’t mention it? Just think about.. while I answer more challenging questions.
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Sorry, I meant 600-1600
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“And I don’t claim that the authors of the Gospels are identified in the books. Again, I ask.. so? – then how can you say they were martyred, if you don’t know who they were?
Observe, Laura, how Kathy evades questions – this is a lesson on how NOT to be a Christian.
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“No one has given me a page.. please give me a specific page, I’ll read it and see if your claim that even though what they’re writing is a lie (according to you), they can believe it as truth”
Kathy , do you suffer from A.D.D. or are you really this ridiculous ????
Nate used (2 Kings 3),
Nan used Matthew (26:36-56)
KC and Arch used (Genesis 30:37-43
Get real !
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Nate,
“Yes you do, Kathy. You maintain that the gospels were written by Jesus’ immediate disciples. So which ones, and where do we get this information?”
I don’t deny that.. yes, I believe the authors are those named in the title of the books. But I never claimed it was explicitly stated in the gospels who the authors were. And we get the information by the clues in the gospels. Those names are the MOST likely authors based on what we do know. Hence the names of the books.
“You want an actual page of the Bible? Then let’s just use the first one. Look at Genesis 1 and tell me how it would be impossible for someone to write that without knowing for sure that it was completely accurate.”
Can you rephrase that please? I’m starting to get confused. You are claiming that the authors of the Bible can be sincere, believing what they are writing as the truth even though it’s false.
ok.. the 1st page of the Bible. Please explain how the author can write all those details as truth, even though it’s all a lie. Your claim isn’t feasible Nate.
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Kathy, you’ve just opened Pandora’s box with your latest posting to me. Can’t you see the fallacy of your reasoning? *sigh* I suppose not.
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Kathy, are you serious???
If I ask a 5 year old what happens when he loses a tooth, and he tells me a story about the Tooth Fairy, is he lying, or is the Tooth Fairy real? According to you, it can only be one of those two possibilities.
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First, I’d like an answer to my Tooth Fairy question, but then I’d love to see you back up this statement. I just gave you all the reasons why most scholars (even a number of Christian ones) don’t believe the names given to the Gospels are accurate. So please tell me how those people are the “MOST likely authors”?
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You at least question things, Laura – stay the kind of Christian you are, but never turn into a Kathy.
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Kathy,
Re – August 28, 2014 at 5:07 pm:
How could so many people believe in the Quran and Islam if it’s false? How could so many people believe they were abducted by aliens? Or that they’ve had visions of the virgin Mary?
Many people believe all kinds of crazy things. I don’t think we even need to understand the mechanisms of delusion, deception, and false beliefs in order to acknowledge that it does happen, and consequently to rightly insist on extraordinary evidence before believing extraordinary claims.
What excludes you and me from possibly having been mistaken for many years about our religious beliefs?
Re – August 28, 2014 at 5:20 pm:
This is special pleading.
Also, they didn’t all have to be one thing or the other, nor does everything need to be so strong as “delusion”. I suspect some parts were rumors and stories that grew, and were spread among the people, and eventually some wrote them down. Some people added things, some details got mixed up along the way, some embellished…probably some lied…
BTW, ever play “Whisper Down the Lane”? (I think most people call it the game of “Telephone”.)
Re – August 28, 2014 at 8:42 pm:
As Nan pointed out, you’re putting words in our mouths.
Now maybe some were lying. Or maybe they just wrote down the stories that they had heard.
We don’t know who wrote the gospels, but (1) they don’t make claims to authorship, (2) they are written in a language (Greek) that Jesus’ (alleged, Aramaic-speaking) disciples likely didn’t know, and (3) they (peasants) were almost certainly not able to write, anyway.
It seems implausible to me that an all-powerful, all-knowing, loving deity–who wants to reveal himself to us so that we can fellowship with him–would perform that revelation through anonymous writers, writing in a different language from the characters in the stories. This suggests they were far removed from any possible witnesses to the alleged events. Who knows how much the story was changed before it got the writers?
Now all that seems strange, but by itself, maybe still possible. (Maybe.) However, don’t forget, that the (ostensibly) “good book” speaks of grave consequences for those who don’t believe.
I see no way to reconcile the proposition of a just and loving god with the claims of eternal punishment as a consequence of simple disbelief of the resurrection hypothesis, which is not evidently true.
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“Kathy, are you serious???
If I ask a 5 year old what happens when he loses a tooth, and he tells me a story about the Tooth Fairy, is he lying, or is the Tooth Fairy real? According to you, it can only be one of those two possibilities.”
Yes Nate, I’m serious.. please tell me your theory of how the author of page 1 of the Bible can believe what they are writing even though it’s “fiction”.
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“Believe it or not, most scholars believe the gospels were written by such people. Well-meaning, devout, but not in a position to actually know if what they wrote was true. They’re much like Christians today, who write commentaries or blogs that talk about the truth of Christianity, but they never knew Jesus or his disciples.”
Nope, this is where you go wrong Nate.. here’s another example of not applying context. Again, if you’d pick a specific page, we could debate this easier.. but, basically the CONTEXT of the Gospels and the rest of the Bible is in a factual context.. they are statements of fact.. with many details. Remember, Christians are supposed to be truthful.. so if, as you say, they aren’t lying, then they couldn’t write these things as fact without themselves having reasonable verification.
But your claim insists that they are using heresay.. “FICTIONAL” heresay, meaning they CAN’T have reasonable verification.. yet they are reporting it as fact. This isn’t a reasonable claim.
And it’s not like people who write commentaries or blogs today.. this is in a SPECULATIVE context. They are entirely different contexts.
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“Yes Nate, I’m serious.. please tell me your theory of how the author of page 1 of the Bible can believe what they are writing even though it’s ‘fiction’.”
How can you POSSIBLY, Kathy, read Nate’s paragraph above, and not see the connection? Are you TRYING to prove that you lack intelligence? If so, you’re doing a bang-up job!
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