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Kathy Part 5

Nate

After breaking 1000 comments on the previous thread, I felt it was a good time to start another.

As a reminder, here are some of the most recent outstanding questions for Kathy:

From Laurie:

You said you answered my questions, and wish more questions were asked. Here are some questions that were not addressed.

Matt 23:8 read first

Philemon 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:14-17
1 Corinthians 12:27
2 Timothy 1:11
1 Timothy 2:7
Ephesians 4:11,12

Why is it that messiah says not to be called rabbi or father, but Paul it’s not obedient to this command?

Matt 10:7,8

1 Timothy 5:17,18
1 Corinthians 9:11,12

Messiah says here that he had given freely, go and freely give. Again, Paul is disobedient.

Matt 18:15

Galatians 2:11-14

Messiah said that if you have a problem with your brother, you should deal with it privately. Here Paul lashes out at Peter “before them all”.

Matt 9:10-12

2 Thessalonians 3:6,7

Yahusha said in the passage above that he came to call the sinner to repentance, not the righteous. Why would Paul want to separate from those that actually need him?

From William:

the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?

here’s all I’ve seen you provide:

1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.

2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.

3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.

4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.

5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.

In addition to these, I’d like to ask something of both Kathy and Laurie (Matt or Hayden or portal001 (Ryan) can chime in as well):

The Bible defines God as being all-loving, all-merciful, fair, just, etc. It can also be read as promising an eternity in Hell for those who don’t serve him correctly. As a believer, how do you square those two statements?

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Published by Nate

954 thoughts on “Kathy Part 5”

  2. “the devil is in the details It seems” ~William

    Indeed!

    “Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.” 1 Chronicles 21:1

    “Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, ‘Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.'” 2 Samuel 24:1

    “I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7

    The scriptures also inform us that God sends out evil spirits. (Judges 9:23; 1 Sam. 16:14;1 Sam. 18:10; 1 Sam. 19:9)

    Which perfectly explains the problem of evil: if God is responsible for creating everything that exists (as most Christians like to maintain), then God is ultimately responsible for creating evil.

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  3. “,em>Now let me ask you a question: do you even know WHY the Council of Nicea was held?”
    While you’re at it, Nan – ask her if she has any idea how close the concept of the Trinity came from being voted down – it would have been interesting to see where Christianity would have gone from THERE.

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  4. It’s not the same thing Nate. You believe we came from monkeys, and I believe we were created as humans. I believe monkeys were always monkeys, and are still monkeys.

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  6. Laurie,

    Even the bible supports large-scale evolution evolution, because according to the Genesis account, the bird “kind” had already evolved into ravens and doves by the time Noah’s ark settled on solid ground. 😀

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  7. @Laurie: we have so many points of divergence that it would be difficult to do all of them justice in a forum like this. But, overall I take it you are anti-Paul. Do you mind if I ask you what are your religious views? What is the most troubling aspect of Paul in your opinion? What list of items, if they were changed, would you be willing to say “Yes, Paul was a legitimate apostle of Jesus”? Out of these, which one is the best evidenced, that even a squirmy postmodern could not escape its persuasiveness? If you want to do this, I will give my best evidenced argument that we should accept Paul. 🙂

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  8. “1. It is possible for something to exist which does not have a creator.
    2. The universe exists.
    3. It is possible that the universe does not have a creator.    ”
    I LIKE it, Dave – Kathy, your serve —

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  9. There was a point in my life where I could have held an intelligent conversation on this subject, but that was years ago. I have not kept up on recent studies, and don’t really enjoy the topic like I once did. So this is not something I’ll try to debate with you. If I ever get bored with my bible, this will be at the top of my list again.

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  10. “you can’t get an elephant from a whale”
    No, Laurie, you can’t – but you CAN get a whale from an elephant-like creature that spent so much of its time in the water, where it was easier to manipulate its bulk, that its feet eventually evolved into flippers, and it’s nostrils evolved to move to the top of its head.

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  11. A naive thinker,

    Do you have another name that I can call you for short? Its okay to say no.

    I follow Judaism, but I do believe Yahusha was The anointed one.

    Prophecy is what makes me certain. Paul’s misuse of scripture is also very high on the list. Unfortunately if you don’t study the “old testament” (which is a horrible title, by the way) or Tanakh, and try to understand it from a hebrew perspective, than this would be a very difficult subject to debate.

    I believe there is plenty of evidence against him, with nothing more than the second witness (new testament).

    The issue of meat sacrificed to idols is huge.

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  15. “I believe monkeys were always monkeys, and are still monkeys.”
    Oh come on, Laurie – even with that crack on the head, you’re more intelligent than that! NObody, except Fundies, believes that we think we came from monkeys. We are apes, cousins of the gorilla, orangutan, chimpanzee and the bonobo, with chimps and bonobos being much closer cousins than any of the other three.

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  16. because he with the power makes the rules, arch.

    The god of the bible is a “do as i say, not as i do,” kind of god.

    He is said to be jealous, but also says that jealousy is a sin.

    He kills people’s babies as punishment to the parents, but he wouldn’t approve if you did that.

    he wants constant attention, adoration, praise and recognition, but commands that all men be humble, quiet and hardworking.

    the list goes on, but ultimately, since god has the power, he makes the rules – not because he’s righteous, but because he’s powerful. So powerful that he can call himself righteous without actually having to be righteous – and if you disagree? he’ll kill you for ever in fire.

    … at least, that’s the rumor.

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  17. “Thanks mensa! You’re always there when I need you! Only NOT!”
    Just callin’ it like i see it, Sweetness – Smoochies –!

    Re “naivethinker” – his name is Brandon, or as I like to call him, Sir Smarmsalot.

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  20. On the topic of evolution…

    It took me a lot longer to understand evolution than it did for me to understand the arguments against the Bible. After deconverting from Christianity I did not automatically switch to accept evolution, but instead clung to deism with special creation. When you’ve spent your entire life believing we were specially created a few thousand years ago and have never taken a serious look at evolution.. well, it’s difficult to think differently.

    I think the first step was coming to grips with how long the earth and the universe have been here. There is a lot of evidence for an old earth from different fields such as the geological layers, radiometric dating, ice core dating, distant starlight and others. However, these are not simple things to fully understand and it takes a lot of work. I now have a pretty good idea of how radiometric dating works and how astronomers measure the distance to stars and galaxies.

    Once an old age for the earth is established it now makes evolution possible from a time consideration. I then read books about evolution and tried to understand DNA mutations and how new information could arise. The idea of natural selection is really very simple to understand (survival of the fittest) and this has been explained pretty well in books, on youtube and other places. What makes evolution a plausible theory is the evidence from DNA comparisons, vestigial organs, the fossil record (simple to complex) and the geographic distribution of species. All of these topics require careful reading to understand.

    I can now say that I accept evolution as a valid theory that is backed up by evidence. I can no longer dismiss it as I once did simply because I did not understand it. All that said, I still have questions and doubts about evolution. I think we all make the mistake of overstating our case and pretending something should be “obvious”. Evolution is not obvious and requires a lot of research.

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  22. “And you arch? Or do you prefer being called a cranky old bird?”

    “cranky old intermediary species…”

    Thank you, William – but to both of you – what, cranky??!!

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