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Kathy Part 5

Nate

After breaking 1000 comments on the previous thread, I felt it was a good time to start another.

As a reminder, here are some of the most recent outstanding questions for Kathy:

From Laurie:

You said you answered my questions, and wish more questions were asked. Here are some questions that were not addressed.

Matt 23:8 read first

Philemon 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:14-17
1 Corinthians 12:27
2 Timothy 1:11
1 Timothy 2:7
Ephesians 4:11,12

Why is it that messiah says not to be called rabbi or father, but Paul it’s not obedient to this command?

Matt 10:7,8

1 Timothy 5:17,18
1 Corinthians 9:11,12

Messiah says here that he had given freely, go and freely give. Again, Paul is disobedient.

Matt 18:15

Galatians 2:11-14

Messiah said that if you have a problem with your brother, you should deal with it privately. Here Paul lashes out at Peter “before them all”.

Matt 9:10-12

2 Thessalonians 3:6,7

Yahusha said in the passage above that he came to call the sinner to repentance, not the righteous. Why would Paul want to separate from those that actually need him?

From William:

the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?

here’s all I’ve seen you provide:

1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.

2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.

3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.

4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.

5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.

In addition to these, I’d like to ask something of both Kathy and Laurie (Matt or Hayden or portal001 (Ryan) can chime in as well):

The Bible defines God as being all-loving, all-merciful, fair, just, etc. It can also be read as promising an eternity in Hell for those who don’t serve him correctly. As a believer, how do you square those two statements?

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Published by Nate

954 thoughts on “Kathy Part 5”

  2. “Jesus would have known all of that. And as for his temptation, how could it really be that? Satan is trying to tell him that scriptures give him the authority to do _____, but how could that have been convincing to Jesus? It would have been like trying to tell Darwin evolution is false while pointing to the Galapagos finches…” nate

    …or like telling someone that they will get $1,000,000 if they kill themselves…

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  3. “if I did I could tell you I have some evidence. But I don’t.” – Whew, I was beginning to worry about you. I was afraid you’d gone all Kathy on us.

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  5. Does the Bible outline anywhere that Jesus had complete understanding of the circumstances during the time of these temptations?

    I know you asked Nate this but, according to scriptures, didn’t Jesus know that he was going to die and be raised again on the third day? And by know I mean, if he was with God before becoming a human didn’t he get to help plan this whole thing? And didn’t he agree to the conditions before taking the assignment?

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  7. @ Ryan,

    And didn’t Jesus say that he was going to prepare a place for others and he’d be back to get them? So it seems he did have a more clear understanding than any other human. If that’s the case, it just seems a bit of a stretch to believe that offers of earthly kingdoms could have been remotely tempting.

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  9. Ruth,

    But was He aware of all of this completely while He was on earth? Or did He hear what the Father specifically told Him He needed to hear at that time.

    after all, He was born as a baby. He learned to walk, talk, He visited to Temple and listened, He was Baptised, He asked God to take the cup from Him in the Garden.

    Was this a gradual understanding over time until He was glorified and overcoming death? Jesus is not to be confused with Neo from the Matrix. didn’t necessarily see digits running down everything.

    He was/is both Man and God. In regard to What God revealed to Him, and at what time. I don’t know.

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  10. Ryan,

    I’m not sure if it says he had complete understanding. However, he was teaching at the temple when he was 12, right? And Satan tempted him right at the beginning of his ministry — most Christians think he was teaching that he was literally the Son of God at that time, so I think it’s a fair assumption that he would have understood these passages were being misused.

    Honestly, the average person is going to be “tempted” far more frequently and far earlier than when they’re around 30 years old. I don’t know why these “temptations” were even necessary — they sound quite a bit like mythology. Like the Trials of Hercules, etc.

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  11. Dear fellow skeptics:

    I was recently involved in a long discussion/debate on a conservative Christian website regarding the lack of evidence for the Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt. It was amazing how these Christians would make rationalization after rationalization to explain why there is zero archaeological evidence for this event. The conversation eventually turned into a general discussion of Religion vs. Reason.

    Has anyone found one particular fact or argument that has been successful in flipping the switch in the minds of these people that finally makes them say, “Hmm. Yea. Something is not quite right with this story.”.

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  12. Ryan,

    I understand the Gospels aren’t necessarily written in chronological order, but Jesus did say to his disciples before the Garden of Gethsemane that he was going to prepare a place for them and he did say that the temple would be torn down and rebuilt in three days (supposedly an allusion to his death and resurrection). It appears he had some understanding of what was happening. The anticipation of [since he had experienced the earthly pain that we’re subjected to] of the cross may have been daunting, but it wasn’t a surprise.

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  13. Hi Gary,

    I think it’s different things for different people.

    When I was a Christian, no evidence for the Exodus wouldn’t have been a huge deal to me. However, contrary evidence of something the Bible claims would have been very big indeed. That’s why the issues in the Book of Daniel really kicked off my own study.

    This page has links to all the articles that were so compelling to me (I got permission to repost them here):
    https://findingtruth.wordpress.com/2012/03/14/skeptical-bible-study-daniel-links-to-each-article/

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  14. “But finally He instead said: yet not my will, but yours be done. (Luke 22:42)” – And of course, “Luke” was sitting on a nearby rock, taking notes —

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  15. No I don’t believe Yahusha was God (at this point). In the Tanakh he is always shown as a servant. A king and a priest offering sacrifices to the father, and eventually sitting at his right hand. But I have not worked out all the kinks just yet.

    Sheol is the ground, the grave. When you die, your body returns the dust of the ground where it came from, and YHWH’s breath returns to him. Even king David is in the grave and had not ascended to the father.

    Wish I could hand around, specially since I have tons to say to Brandon, but my herd of dairy goats and two young children are being impatient! I’ll be back tonight!

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  17. Has anyone found one particular fact or argument that has been successful in flipping the switch in the minds of these people that finally makes them say, “Hmm. Yea. Something is not quite right with this story.”.

    Gary,

    I think it’s helpful to remember the reasons you started to question. I’m not entirely sure that in it’s infancy belief nor disbelief is completely rational (don’t burn me at the stake, people!). In my experience there has to be some catalyst for [most] people to begin questioning what they believe whether they be atheists or believers. In the end those who have chosen to believe think their position is the most reasonable while those who who have chosen not to believe think their position is the most reasonable. That is, until they don’t.

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  18. Laurie,

    Are you saying that you don’t believe that Jesus has been resurrected? Or that he has been resurrected and it was at that point that he was made God?

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  19. so I think it’s a fair assumption that he would have understood these passages were being misused.

    Hi Nate,

    Yes, I agree 🙂 and as a consequence Jesus was not deceived.

    He had the understanding to avoid temptation. There’s a difference between being deceived and being tempted right? Although, You can be both deceived and tempted at the same time in a mix of invited premises (Adam and Eve).

    Here’s an illustration

    If I had no understanding whatsoever of hay fever that triggers asthma, and a magic man told me to put my face in a cat,

    Then I would be deceived.

    Yet say if I had a ventolin puffer with me, yet I had no understanding of how to use my ventolin puffer. I’d still be deceived, since no one even told me. (not like Adam and Eve, God did tell them).

    Yet say I was told how to correctly use my puffer. Yet I still took the magic man’s advice and stuck my face in the cat because He said that if I did he would give me a castle.

    The I would not only be tempted, but would have also taken the bait.

    Furthermore, if the magic man told me that the only way to correctly use my puffer was to stick it in my ear, then in that case I would also be deceived, and tempted. Since although I knew the correct way to use it, I believed the magic man over my doctor.

    If the magic man promised me that if I stuck my puffer in my ear then I would be able to shoot rainbows out of my fingers, and this happened to something that appealed to me or something that he was offering to give me, then I would then be both deceived and tempted. Whether I knew hoe to use the puffer well enough or not. It would be the magic man’s word against the doctors.

    Jesus was tempted. but the devil did not succeed in deceiving Him.

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  20. Portal, RE: “nobody can attack a boy in a bubble” – George Costanza did it. You’ve got some funny material.

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  21. Or in other words, even if the devil could not deceive Him, Jesus was still tempted.

    Like even if the doctor had prior told me how to use my puffer correctly to avoid hay fever, and I instead took the advice of the magic man to stick in my ear, because he promised me a castle, then I would have fallen into temptation, even when I had the understanding not to and how to respond correctly.

    It was the magic man’s word against the doctors. And Even if I couldn’t have really been deceived, since the doctor had already informed me how to use my puffer beforehand, I was still confronted with the (knowingly false) lies of the magic man, yet I still had a choice. But in that moment of being confronted with the magic man, the temptation is still a real threat. Its still a choice.

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  23. No, I do believe in a resurrection. The feast of first fruits is the resurrection. After messiah (first fruit) is harvested from the earth, It is a promise that the rest of the earth will be harvested.

    I know this is probably really redundant and annoying to some, but look at the symbolic meaning of the feasts. There are two harvests. The first is barley and then the wheat. There are two seasons spring and fall, representing two comings. First as the suffering servant (Joseph) and then as the reigning king (David). The first offering is without leaven (barley, messiah) . The leaven represents sin, messiah was without sin. The second offering is baked into loaves at the wheat harvest, this harvest was not sinless. I don’t think this is something that can really be explained here and now, but I will try to find you a link tonight.

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  25. Nate, just one more note

    Jesus understood He was God, and His rightful place was to be Lord

    the devil offered an alternate (but false) way of doing this.

    The Second Temptation

    (1) The Proposition. Having failed in the first recorded effort, Satan moved to an alternate approach:

    Then the devil took Him into the holy city; and he stood Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God throw Yourself down; for it is written, ‘He will give His angels charge concerning You; and in their hands they will bear You up, lest You strike Your foot against a stone.’” Jesus said to him, “On the other hand, it is written, ‘You shalt not tempt the Lord your God’” (Matt. 4:5-7).

    – This was a very subtle challenge for Jerusalem was the sacred city,

    – The temple was the centre of Israel’s religious life. Furthermore, the Old Testament prophecies anticipated Messiah’s public presentation at the temple (Mal. 3:1).

    – Besides this, there was a rabbinic tradition that Messiah would reveal Himself from the roof of the temple.

    – As a rule, the Jews expected Messiah to be introduced in some kind of blaze of glory, and a spectacular leap and miraculous deliverance would precisely fill the bill.

    The Premise.

    Satan’s presupposition in this challenge was that God’s faithfulness is best demonstrated by the spectacular.

    In addition, there is the implicit assumption that one’s trustworthiness should be put to the test. If God was the Father of our Lord Jesus, let Him prove it, and in such an unusual way that no one could miss it.

    The 91st Psalm which Satan quoted from speaks of the quiet confidence which the child of God possesses. But divine protection does not encourage presumption.

    Christ’s reply again from the book of Deuteronomy is that, “You shall not tempt the Lord your God” (Deut. 6:16).

    still temptation, but because Jesus had the understanding, He was not deceived.

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