After breaking 1000 comments on the previous thread, I felt it was a good time to start another.
As a reminder, here are some of the most recent outstanding questions for Kathy:
From Laurie:
You said you answered my questions, and wish more questions were asked. Here are some questions that were not addressed.
Matt 23:8 read first
Philemon 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:14-17
1 Corinthians 12:27
2 Timothy 1:11
1 Timothy 2:7
Ephesians 4:11,12Why is it that messiah says not to be called rabbi or father, but Paul it’s not obedient to this command?
Matt 10:7,8
1 Timothy 5:17,18
1 Corinthians 9:11,12Messiah says here that he had given freely, go and freely give. Again, Paul is disobedient.
Matt 18:15
Galatians 2:11-14
Messiah said that if you have a problem with your brother, you should deal with it privately. Here Paul lashes out at Peter “before them all”.
Matt 9:10-12
2 Thessalonians 3:6,7
Yahusha said in the passage above that he came to call the sinner to repentance, not the righteous. Why would Paul want to separate from those that actually need him?
From William:
the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
In addition to these, I’d like to ask something of both Kathy and Laurie (Matt or Hayden or portal001 (Ryan) can chime in as well):
The Bible defines God as being all-loving, all-merciful, fair, just, etc. It can also be read as promising an eternity in Hell for those who don’t serve him correctly. As a believer, how do you square those two statements?
Finding Truth 
And Even if I couldn’t have really been deceived, since the doctor had already informed me how to use my puffer beforehand, I was still confronted with the (knowingly false) lies of the magic man, yet I still had a choice. But in that moment of being confronted with the magic man, the temptation is still a real threat. Its still a choice.
Perhaps you do still have a choice. I don’t think anyone was implying that there isn’t a choice. But when confronted with obviously false promises or instructions it doesn’t seem like much of one. I’m not sure what the purpose of attempting to tempt someone who cannot be deceived is. And if one cannot be deceived it’s quite a bit different than someone who can be deceived. If one cannot be deceived then it’s not much of a temptation or a threat, is it?
In using your analogy, that would be like me showing you that I have $100,000 and promising to give it to you if you stick your puffer thingy in your ear, but you having seen that the doctor has unlimited wealth and power and that he has shared that wealth and power with you in the past and will share that wealth and power you in the future in unlimited amounts. That $100.000 isn’t very appealing. At least it wouldn’t be to me.
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I hate to be cranky, but its almost as if no body sees what has occurred. Paul came in and said ” hey your saved by grace! Do as thou wilt (Aleister Crowley).” And all of a sudden nothing else matters in the whole book. Why even read it?
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I realize this is completely irrelevant to most of you, but it makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall.
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I hate to be cranky, but its almost as if no body sees what has occurred. Paul came in and said ” hey your saved by grace! Do as thou wilt (Aleister Crowley).” And all of a sudden nothing else matters in the whole book. Why even read it?
I had/have every intention of going back and re-familiarizing myself on the feasts. I’m taking your point perfectly well and can see where you’re deriving your viewpoint on Paul.
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Ruth,
people do it all the time, its in advertising. Sure the promises aren’t whole cities. But most people are educated enough to know that investing in that pyramid scheme will not make them rich, but in that moment of confrontation, especially if you are deprived (lack of food, water fasting, lack of resources) its still a temptation, even with understanding that its false. We may fall in such circumstances. Jesus didn’t. He was physically and Spiritually confronted, and He knew better. We also know better in different ways. But people still buy into pyramid schemes, and lose everything. am I making sense 🙂
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Ruth,
that was not my blog btw, I have no idea who’s blog that was
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But most people are educated enough to know that investing in that pyramid scheme will not make them rich, but in that moment of confrontation, especially if you are deprived (lack of food, water fasting, lack of resources) its still a temptation, even with understanding that its false. We may fall in such circumstances. Jesus didn’t. He was physically and Spiritually confronted, and He knew better.
First of all, pyramid schemes suck. I’ve never done one. Second of all, I can see the temptation of someone who has no food or water now, nor any idea that they ever will again. They don’t know where their next meal is coming from and they’ve got no knowledge that they will be provided with any such thing by anyone ever – not even the promise of such. That analogy kind of falls apart under that scenario. Because Jesus knew perfectly well what God the Father had promised him and whatever the devil promised him paled in comparison. Further, this just goes to what I said earlier about our temptations being everyday, ordinary stuff – there’s no magic man standing in front of you.
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So I guess the question is, are people who fall for these schemes not tempted? People who fall for them are not stupid, not all of them are ignorant either. Why do they do it? because it’s a false alternative, even if they know better. Jesus didn’t fall for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme
I better go to bed.
Night 🙂
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Sorry, one more question Ruth,
so where in the Bible does it say that Jesus knew *exactly* what was going to happen to Him? in every last detail, and how it was going to unfold?
Hope you have a really nice hey 🙂
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No, I didn’t say that people who fall for these schemes aren’t tempted. Though I’m not certain that they know it’s a false alternative. But if they are starving and have no promise of any other alternative then it’s a live choice. Do something or starve. Jesus – even in your analogy – knew better.
Were I starving and had no other options then a pyramid scheme might be tempting. Jesus knew he had other options.
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so where in the Bible does it say that Jesus knew *exactly* what was going to happen to Him? in every last detail, and how it was going to unfold?
Hmmm…I feel like I’ve frustrated you with my questions a bit. I don’t believe that it does. But I do believe it gives enough detail that Jesus knew what his purpose was. Would it be necessary for him to know *exactly* how everything would unfold for him to not be tempted? Do you not think that when he said that the temple would be destroyed and raised again in three days that he knew it would be brutal?
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Have a great night, Ryan.
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Hmmm…I feel like I’ve frustrated you with my questions a bit.
don’t think that Ruth,
I’m not frustrated, kind of sleepy though
Do you not think that when he said that the temple would be destroyed and raised again in three days that he knew it would be brutal?
Good point, but the how
is not pointed out, at least to those Jesus is talking to, We have the gift of hindsight now, since we know what happens next. But exactly what God revealed to Jesus as a man and when He revealed specific insight, is really speculation as soon as we step outside the accounts in Scripture. Unless God has told someone otherwise… I have been given no such information.
All the best, catch ya on the flipside 🙂
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“On the other hand, it is written, ‘You shalt not tempt the Lord your God’” (Matt. 4:5-7).
The passages in Matthew 4:7 and Luke 4:12 have Jesus misquoting the Old Testament.
“Do not put the Lord your God to the test as you did at Massah.” (Deuteronomy 6:16) refers back to the story found in Exodus 17:1-7 where the Israelites didn’t put complete trust in the Lord—which is precisely the opposite of what Jesus is being asked to do here.
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“I realize this is completely irrelevant to most of you, but it makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall.” – Don’t you think your poor baby head’s been through enough already?
Actually, over here on the opposite side of the coin – I feel basically the same (head-banging) way – they are arguing about religious minutia, when bottom line, it’s ALL about magic, and there ain’t no magic! Nothing to argue about, case closed!
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Hey at least there’s actual dialogue and a few conversations going on now, and not just paying each other out 🙂 Woooooh!!!
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Oh, come on Portal – “Pyramid Schemes”? You’re trying to make a comparison with that? People who invest in pyramid schemes are desperate, or at the least, greedy (believing they can get in and out before the pyramid collapses) – if your Jesus was really your god, he already had the entire universe, and anything else he needed with the snap of his finger, what could possibly tempt him – there IS no comparison.
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Gary M, RE:
“Has anyone found one particular fact or argument that has been successful in flipping the switch in the minds of these people that finally makes them say, ‘Hmm. Yea. Something is not quite right with this story.’”
That’s easier said than done. Courtesy of Ron:
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/
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Thanks Nate and Ruth!
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“Hey at least there’s actual dialogue and a few conversations going on now, and not just paying each other out 🙂 Woooooh!!!” – True, Portal, but Kathy’s not here yet from her breakfast shift at McDonalds, then things will go back to goofy again.
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I am soo tired Arch, if I squint your at you little logo, it almost looks like a squiggly cracked little tetris block. If I had 10 of them I’d have a row….there so is a comparison I think, I just need to sleep though otherwise ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccsaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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That was me passing out on the c and a keys….
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seriously though, there is SOO a comparison, I didn’t just write out all those symbols and organised them into comprehension-able words just so you can shut it all down with
there IS no comparison.
goodnight my tetrisblock… 🙂
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they are arguing about religious minutia, when bottom line, it’s ALL about magic, and there ain’t no magic! Nothing to argue about, case closed!
Whachou talkin’ ’bout, Willis? Who’s arguing? We’re discussing now.
About the magic: I agree. And this just highlights some of the smaller differences between believers and unbelievers. The temptation seems perfectly logical to Ryan but seems completely illogical to me.
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“I am soo tired Arch,” – I had a good friend in Sydney, Portal, until we lost her to cancer last April, point is, I have an app that tells me what time it is there, and you are long overdue for some Z’s – get some sleep.
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