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Kathy Part 5

Nate

After breaking 1000 comments on the previous thread, I felt it was a good time to start another.

As a reminder, here are some of the most recent outstanding questions for Kathy:

From Laurie:

You said you answered my questions, and wish more questions were asked. Here are some questions that were not addressed.

Matt 23:8 read first

Philemon 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:14-17
1 Corinthians 12:27
2 Timothy 1:11
1 Timothy 2:7
Ephesians 4:11,12

Why is it that messiah says not to be called rabbi or father, but Paul it’s not obedient to this command?

Matt 10:7,8

1 Timothy 5:17,18
1 Corinthians 9:11,12

Messiah says here that he had given freely, go and freely give. Again, Paul is disobedient.

Matt 18:15

Galatians 2:11-14

Messiah said that if you have a problem with your brother, you should deal with it privately. Here Paul lashes out at Peter “before them all”.

Matt 9:10-12

2 Thessalonians 3:6,7

Yahusha said in the passage above that he came to call the sinner to repentance, not the righteous. Why would Paul want to separate from those that actually need him?

From William:

the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?

here’s all I’ve seen you provide:

1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.

2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.

3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.

4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.

5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.

In addition to these, I’d like to ask something of both Kathy and Laurie (Matt or Hayden or portal001 (Ryan) can chime in as well):

The Bible defines God as being all-loving, all-merciful, fair, just, etc. It can also be read as promising an eternity in Hell for those who don’t serve him correctly. As a believer, how do you square those two statements?

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Published by Nate

954 thoughts on “Kathy Part 5”

  1. I cant tell you all how much this has brightened my day…

    This is hysterical – paul and kathy

    and then kathy adds this, “some of what this new person says is true, most of it is not.”

    it’s a soap opera, and I cant turn it off now.

    paul, what’s up? like nate asked, what’s your history with kathy and how did you find her here?

    Is penn coming?

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  2. I just read an interesting post entitled, “Why Did Jesus’ Disciples Abandon Him in His Last Hours?”

    One person made this comment about the posting: “According to Jesus’ own words, even his Father (God) forsook him in his last hour! Kind of makes you second guess when Jesus said, “I will never leave thee or forsake thee. [S]ince Jesus was God, and God knows ALL Things, why wouldn’t He have known why He forsook Himself?”

    Makes one wonder just a bit …

    BTW, Brandon, I’m not ignoring you. I’ll get back to you on Paul.

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  5. “According to Jesus’ own words, even his Father (God) forsook him in his last hour!” – You realize, of course Nan, that that line – “Father, why hast thou forsaken me?” is a direct quotation from Psalms, inserted to further legitimize the fable. No one in agony from having been beaten, spending the night without sleep, being nailed through the wrists and feet, and hanging in the hot sun all day without food or water, is going to say to himself, “Ok, now this is the part where I need to quote Psalms –!”

    There was a group, in early Christianity, the Separationists, who believed that Yeshua was born fully human, that the holy spook entered him at his baptism, at which time he became the Christ, then the Christ left him at his moment of death, causing him to utter those words – but hey, c’mon – a direct quote?

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  7. “This, by Kathy, is actually rather poignant” – The first half, that is, then the thing breaks down, as could be expected, into a religious rant against liberals.

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  8. What’s your point Arch?

    If it’s about “hate”.. disagreement is NOT hate.. and it never will be.
    The hate comes in when people attack those who don’t disagree with them.. via
    name calling and personal insults… and pointing out my personal failures?

    The anger comes when people’s views and beliefs are threatened. This is normal
    human behavior. You all already understand this. But your deliberate ignorance blinders
    won’t allow you to see it in yourselves. Again, this is why God warns us about pride..
    it’s extremely destructive.

    You all don’t see it but I do. William is beyond relieved.. because I have faults now.. doesn’t matter that I’ve proven him wrong on his chosen beliefs.. it just means he can ignore that his beliefs are faulty a little easier now. Ignorance is bliss.

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  9. “I don’t know when I’ve seen anyone leave the board so fast! BTW, she lives in Florida.”

    Sorry Arch.. didn’t go anywhere. And where do you live? And again, what’s your point?

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  10. Read the “poignant” piece written by Kathy. ALSO read the comments. Seems that many saw in her writings the same thing we often see here. Misinformation. Placing blame. Caustic replies.

    Not much has changed since 2010.

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  11. @Gary M

    You asked:

    “Has anyone found one particular fact or argument that has been successful in flipping the switch in the minds of these people that finally makes them say, “Hmm. Yea. Something is not quite right with this story.”

    No—and I hold little expectation of anyone suddenly announcing they’ve “seen the light” and renouncing their faith. Preachers don’t “win souls to Christ” using logic and reason, so it’s unlikely those alone will trigger a deconversion. That usually requires some personal crisis of faith or similar emotional event.

    However…

    “He who asks lots of questions rules the conversation” (and often gets paid big bucks to do so). I find that posing open-ended questions about epistimology (How do you know? How can you be certain? What would convince you to…? etc.) fosters more productive conversations than fact-laden missives trying to disprove the other side. Unfortunately, some people would rather engage in a battle of wits than thought-provoking dialog, so that doesn’t always pan out.

    YMMV

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  12. Some of you may have an interest in this:

    Paul Williams says:
    September 11, 2014 at 14:18 | Reply

    hilarious. I’ve known Kathy Smith for years, she lives in Sarasota FL and I used to be a co-blogger on tothewire/wordpress. she is a total idiot. I discovered her back in 2008 thru her bill keller reverse ignorance post.

    some fun facts:
    she had her huffington post account closed 6 times for bullying huffpo contributor and actor Steven Weber.

    she complains relentlessly about government entitlements, yet she herself is on food stamps and has an “obamaphone”

    she currently harasses greg gutfeld of fox on twitter, were he also banned her.

    she got pregnant in high school and forced her boyfriend to marry her, as it was the “Christian” thing to do, it lasted less than two years. http://tothewire.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/its-just-not-about-hate/

    Paul Williams says:
    September 11, 2014 at 14:22 | Reply

    oh yes, I forgot to add, Kathy dropped out of high school in when she got knocked up.

    Paul Williams says:
    September 11, 2014 at 16:01 | Reply

    Kathy admitted to being on food stamps on one of steven weber’s huffpo blogs. she was complaining about how Obama was giving away food stamps in order to garner votes. she was “irate” that when she applied for food stamps online there was a link to register to vote. to her, it was clearly a “liberal” plot.

    she admitted to being on food stamps and Obamaphone, but her reasoning was that Obama had made the economy so bad, she had no other alternative. that is the definition of “reverse ignorance”

    we all really razzed her about it.

    if anyone cares, her latest incarnation on huffpo is “freedom is right”. and you can find her on twitter at “kayms99″.

    however, I notice she hasn’t been commenting lately under either of those aliases, so I imagine, as usual, she has made up other accounts to spread her bill keller fanaticism and his gospel of hate and ignorance.
    she’s pretty easy to find, though, since she is the only person on the planet that actively supports his ministry online.

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  14. “doesn’t matter that I’ve proven him wrong on his chosen beliefs..” – You haven’t proven anyone wrong since you’ve been here – you’ve only wasted two months of your time and ours. There has been far more knowledge exchanged just since Laurie came aboard, than in the entire two months of you. And in the mornings, we get far more ideas exchanged than in the rest of the day after you sign on. Doesn’t that tell you something?

    “I have faults now..” – NOW?! That was evident from the first day! In fact, that first week, if you want to know the truth, I tried to be gentle with you, thinking to myself, she has to be young and naive, no one can be that stupid. When I realized how wrong I’d been, the gloves came off, partly from anger at myself for having been so gullible.

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  15. “Sorry Arch.. didn’t go anywhere” – That’s disappointing.

    “And where do you live?” – In the REAL world.

    “And again, what’s your point?” – Just spreading information, so we can get to know you better.

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  16. “Arch’s comments regarding me personally and regarding nothing about the points that he clearly knows he can’t win.” – Can’t win what, Kathy? Certainly not a debate, because you haven’t debated since you got here.

    Here are examples of your “debating” skills:
    “I haven’t studied in depth like everyone else here.”
    “I know all I NEED to know.”
    “I’m the rational one here.. ”
    “Jesus did away with those strict laws and rules”.
    “what you believe has NO bearing on what the truth is.”
    “My evidence is my claim.. that you are FREE to argue against.”

    There was never anything to “win.”

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  17. Bill Keller has faults.. I’ve said this all along. I don’t support his online ministry. I don’t deny that he has issues with hate. He is not my pastor. But most of what he says is true.. it’s in line with the Bible. He understands what is happening in this country.. he’s 100% right as are most pastors that God is going to stop protecting this country. 9/11 2001 was an example of that. It’s only going to get worse. He speaks about the things that most pastors won’t because it will affect their income/ tithing. He talks about Mormonism and how destructive and evil it is. If more pastors would do this, there’s no way Romney could be president of this country.. but as it is, people care more about being politically correct.. so we STILL could have Romney as our president.. a person who believes he will become a god when he dies.. and inherit his own planet to populate.. and just know that every time you see him, especially if it’s in the White House, he IS wearing “special” underwear underneath his clothes.. which he believes protects him from harm. I had no clue about Mormonism until I came across Bill Keller. His knowledge is valuable, no matter how he delivers it.

    The truth on all these matters is important… regardless of what liberals *want* to believe.

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  18. “The truth on all these matters is important…” – I said it two months ago and I’ll say it again – attitudes about you have changed a bit since then – you wouldn’t know the truth if it slapped you in the face.

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  19. Know why I think you’re here, Kathy? I think it’s because you have no where else to go. The truth is, if you’d drop all of your biased, know-it-all attitude, and railing against everything you don’t agree with as “Liberal,” most of us here wouldn’t mind if you stayed and discussed things with us, but the attitude would have to go.

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  20. Of course it’s not my blog, I can’t tell you to stay or go, but if you want to be treated differently, you have to expect to act differently,

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  21. @Brandon,

    This may sound like a cop-out, but Paul said a LOT of things that simply weren’t true — not only about his association with Jesus, but about Jesus himself. No, I won’t say Paul was lying. I’m sure he believed everything he wrote.

    Re: his apostleship — you wrote: Jesus appeared to him just as he appeared to the other apostles. No, he didn’t. He appeared as a blinding light and a disembodied voice.

    During my days as a Christian, it was always my understanding that an apostle was one of the original 12 disciples chosen to preach the gospel. Paul was not one of the original disciples, so while he may call himself an apostle, in actuality it was a title he gave to himself.

    You pointed out what Paul said in Gal 1:1. Did you also read in verse 12 where he says he received his gospel “through a revelation of Jesus Christ”? What exactly was the “revelation” that the disembodied voice gave to him? Do a careful read of his Damascus Road experience and report back.

    The facts are Paul preached a “new gospel” — one that would appeal to the gentiles. He effectively abolished the laws that God gave to the Jewish people, turned Jesus into a dying-rising savior, removed any reference to Jesus’ “Jewishness” by calling him the “Christ” (instead of the Messiah), and taught that Jesus was a deity so the followers of the mystery religions would accept him.

    I don’t mean this as a plug, but I go into considerable detail about Paul in my book. If you’ve been following these blog postings on “Kathy,” back up to Kathy 4, scan to September 7, 2014 at 1:02 am, and see the comment by haydenlinder about the book.

    Laurie feels similarly about Paul, but from a different perspective.

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  22. @Nan: thanks for the response.
    I can see that you strongly believe that Jesus “appeared as a blinding light and a disembodied voice” as opposed to what Paul actually claimed: that Jesus appeared to him in a resurrection body, but I’m wondering why. What is your reasoning? Whether or not Paul was legitimately an apostle depends entirely on your reason for thinking he did NOT have an experience with the divine as such. So, it’s the reason that is most important. I would be very interested to hear your reason.

    Galatians 1:11-12 are some Pauline verses that I have studied in great detail. What you quoted: “. . . by a revelation of Jesus Christ” is in Greek “. . . di apokalypseos Iesou Christou”, and assigns the genitive case to Jesus Christ meaning that it can have a few different meanings. It can mean Paul’s revelation came from Jesus Christ as the NIV translates or it can mean about Jesus Christ or it can mean both of these simultaneously since they are not mutually exclusive. If we let Acts fill out the meaning, then both are true. Otherwise it’s difficult to fill out the meaning with only Pauline writings, I have tried. (If none of this paragraph makes any sense then just realize that I’m saying Gal 1:12 is fundamentally ambiguous in the original Greek, but we cannot rule out that it meant Jesus Christ himself gave Paul the revelation).

    I for one find Paul’s treatment of Judaism to be with supreme care and respect. If you look at the beginning of Romans 9 you will find that Paul almost regrets the responsibility of the Christian doctrine because he loves Jewish traditions so much. But, the truth is he thought works of the Law were not how we are justified. What does justified mean? In Lutheranism justification is a sort of moral virtue, but in other scholarship (NT Wright) justification means what sets us apart as children of God or in the Kingdom of God. I favor the latter. Paul would say that we are not justified by outward works (circumcision, kosher eating, etc.) but rather by our faith in the Creator. He derives this from careful reading of Scripture in light of Jesus.

    Paul never thought Israel had ended. Read Romans 9, Israel now belongs to Christ and we are its continuation. We are Israel. Christ broke down the barrier from national identity to an identity based on the Kingdom of God, not to be earned by religious traditions, but to be freely given by our faith in God.
    -B

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  24. @Portal – She didn’t want to go, but no pleading, no bargaining, she stayed atheist to the end. She was my staunchest literary fan.

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  25. Paul Williams, howdy

    would you appreciate it if someone came through on a blog you frequented, and then started attacking your character? I’m thinking you prob wouldn’t. But hey I could be wrong on that, after all I don’t know you.

    I take what Kathy writes at face value. Even if she’s on food stamps. Personally, I think if a point is being made by someone, that point should stand on its own,

    no matter if that point came from liberal, conservative, unemployed, employed, rich, poor ect.

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