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Kathy Part 5

Nate

After breaking 1000 comments on the previous thread, I felt it was a good time to start another.

As a reminder, here are some of the most recent outstanding questions for Kathy:

From Laurie:

You said you answered my questions, and wish more questions were asked. Here are some questions that were not addressed.

Matt 23:8 read first

Philemon 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:14-17
1 Corinthians 12:27
2 Timothy 1:11
1 Timothy 2:7
Ephesians 4:11,12

Why is it that messiah says not to be called rabbi or father, but Paul it’s not obedient to this command?

Matt 10:7,8

1 Timothy 5:17,18
1 Corinthians 9:11,12

Messiah says here that he had given freely, go and freely give. Again, Paul is disobedient.

Matt 18:15

Galatians 2:11-14

Messiah said that if you have a problem with your brother, you should deal with it privately. Here Paul lashes out at Peter “before them all”.

Matt 9:10-12

2 Thessalonians 3:6,7

Yahusha said in the passage above that he came to call the sinner to repentance, not the righteous. Why would Paul want to separate from those that actually need him?

From William:

the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?

here’s all I’ve seen you provide:

1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.

2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.

3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.

4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.

5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.

In addition to these, I’d like to ask something of both Kathy and Laurie (Matt or Hayden or portal001 (Ryan) can chime in as well):

The Bible defines God as being all-loving, all-merciful, fair, just, etc. It can also be read as promising an eternity in Hell for those who don’t serve him correctly. As a believer, how do you square those two statements?

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Published by Nate

954 thoughts on “Kathy Part 5”

  1. “I’m confused because you complain that the system must be run correctly and also seem to be complaining because reforms were made that made it more difficult for you to get the assistance.”
    Let me help clear up that confusion, Ruth – that’s Kathy’s way of saying that Obama “bought” his re-election, by loosening restrictions before the election, and tightening them up afterward – but we only have her word for that, and we know that she is spoonfed nearly all of her words.

    We know that would never happen with Romney – he made it clear in what he thought was a private conversation, that 47% of this country – the poor – didn’t matter to him.

    I recall seeing a video of Little George W’s fundraising speech in Dallas, before an audience of his Republican, money-grubbing FatCats, prior to his second term, in which he said, “Well, here I am among the “Have’s” and the “Have-More’s,” or as I like to think of you, my base –” Gotta love Little George!

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  2. Brandon,

    Sorry for the delay in response …

    I can see that you strongly believe that Jesus “appeared as a blinding light and a disembodied voice” as opposed to what Paul actually claimed: that Jesus appeared to him in a resurrection body, but I’m wondering why. What is your reasoning? Whether or not Paul was legitimately an apostle depends entirely on your reason for thinking he did NOT have an experience with the divine as such. So, it’s the reason that is most important. I would be very interested to hear your reason.

    Based on the description in Acts (which, in itself, is suspect since Paul doesn’t give any details of the event himself – Gal. 1:12, 1Cor 15:8), it was a “light from heaven” that spoke to Paul. It was not a “resurrected body,” contrary to any claims Paul may have made at a later date. (Question: what exactly does a “resurrected body” look like, anyway?) The fact is … Paul had a vision (a vivid mental image), not uncommon within the Jewish faith as evidenced by the “prophets” of the OT.

    His claim of being an apostle was granted to him by the leaders James (Jesus’ brother), Peter, and John (all who believed Jesus’ resurrection) at the conference in Jerusalem. Later, however, it seems Peter had second thoughts when he became aware of the full extent of Paul’s views as opposed to Jewish Christianity. Interestingly, in 1Cor 15:9, Paul even discounts his role as “apostle.”

    I’d like to refer you to this page for an excellent source of information about Paul. This quote comes from that page: “Paul was a religious genius, who invested Greek mystery-religion with the historical sweep and authority of the Jewish Bible.”

    Once I began looking more deeply into Christianity, I discovered that just using the bible to justify doctrines and beliefs is not enough. There is a history to be considered, some of which can only be found through research and study. It was through these efforts that I came to the conclusion it was Paul, not Jesus, who defined Christianity.

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  3. Ruth, your questions are valid. I did need help.. could I have gotten by on less than $200? Yes. . Did I use it all anyway.. yes, most of the time. It’s easy to rationalize to myself that I needed all the help I could get because of my situation.
    But you’re wrong in assuming that I wasn’t grateful, I’ve said nothing that would indicate that. The food assistance program is a necessity… but because of the govt.’s abuse of the program, for political gain, it’s become more of a burden to the country than a help. And the system, thanks to the left, is constructed in a way that CAN take down the entire country. I say “can”.. but it’s actively doing that right now.

    “Do you even know what the dems views on public assistance programs are, or do you just spout the right wing propaganda you’ve been fed?”

    If it’s the same as Republicans, it’s to help those in need.. and nothing more. Sorry Ruth, I’m “spouting” the truth.. democrats need to buy votes.. that’s why Obama and co. want so badly to make it easier for illegals to become citizens.. for the votes.. so they can stay in power.. now and down the road.

    “Further I’m confused because you complain that the system must be run correctly and also seem to be complaining because reforms were made that made it more difficult for you to get the assistance.”

    You missed my point.. I expected this.. I was complaining not about my not being able to get food stamps, but about the obviousness of Obama and the left’s abuse of tax payer money for his/ their own political and personal gain.

    I knew I qualified for food stamps long before I finally got assistance.. I would qualify today. I didn’t like it.. I hated standing in the grocery line knowing that people ahead of me and behind me had worked hard to pay for their groceries.. and mine were getting paid for. But I would like to note that VERY often, those people ahead of me, ALSO had that same govt. card.

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  4. @Kathy,

    I’m sorry you found yourself in a situation that you needed assistance.

    Sorry Ruth, I’m “spouting” the truth.. democrats need to buy votes.. that’s why Obama and co. want so badly to make it easier for illegals to become citizens.. for the votes.. so they can stay in power.. now and down the road.

    If you cannot argue politics any better than you’ve been able to argue religion maybe you should stop. Are you not aware that George W. Bush advocated for a pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants? Are you profoundly aware of the money it would cost this country to round all the illegal immigrants up and send them home? And if you think for one tiny minute that either party doesn’t grease palms and pander you’re sadly mistaken. Perhaps Democrats do attempt to buy votes with assistance programs – though I don’t think that’s very effective since their the least represented group in registered voters(and even the ones who are registered to vote don’t typically do so) – but the GOP panders to special interest groups and corporate America. And it isn’t for the creation of jobs either. It’s to line their own dang pockets. Both parties, or perhaps I should say all three parties, do it. And, yes, it has all led to the decline of our legal and democratic process. The GOP is just as responsible for the decline in this country as any other. Balance is key. Extremism is dangerous in most of it’s forms. The far right and the far left are no different. I think if you’d slow down for just a moment and take the time to find out what people’s views are instead of lobbing your ‘sky is falling’ gloom and doom you might find out that most of us are more moderate than you think. But you’d rather go around screaming LIBERAL agenda.

    Just in case you aren’t familiar with this it shows the breakdown of our Federal Budget – where our tax dollars go:

    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year_spending_2014USbt_15bs2n_10#usgs302

    The lion’s share is spent on Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, and Defense.

    These are the Welfare Statistics:

    http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/

    Fourteen percent of the 316.13M people in the U.S. are on Food Stamps, and 4.1% are on Welfare, and 6.1% are on Unemployment. I hardly think that’s going to suck the life out of America. Yes, the economy went south. That didn’t happen in a vacuum. That didn’t happen overnight and it most certainly is not any one administration’s fault. In fact if you wanted to point to something it could be Wall Street and Real Estate. The setup for this implosion began long ago. Lest you think I’m defending Obama, think again. I don’t agree with all of his policies either.

    The economy is improving but the news programming you choose to listen to probably doesn’t choose to highlight that fact.

    You missed my point.. I expected this.. I was complaining not about my not being able to get food stamps, but about the obviousness of Obama and the left’s abuse of tax payer money for his/ their own political and personal gain.

    I don’t think the failure was in my understanding. Perhaps it was in your delivery. That is the way it came across.

    It has become very clear to me that you go off on the sideline issues because you enjoy being confrontational, not because you hope to effect any kind of meaningful dialogue.

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  7. You’re wasting your time, Ruth – any links that don’t go to a Right-Wing Christian Fundamentalist website Will never be read.
    ““I know all I NEED to know.”“

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  10. “I have no doubt, arch.”
    It’s gone in SO many different directions, it’s hard to remember how it began.

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  11. Someone might find this interesting: Ted Cruz booed off stage while defending Israel

    Anybody who boos Ted Cruz, can’t be all bad – he’s only there to break up the Hispanic voting bloc. “Throw a Mexican name in there, those dummies don’t care what he stands for, they’ll just vote for him ’cause he’s Mexican!” Ah, yes, there’s that Republican concern for the masses —

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  12. arch, i love to “lurk”,
    I’m doing it right now
    shhhh, don’t tell anybody

    her daughter got married about 2 yrs ago.
    how long has it been Kathy?
    feels like freakin’ forever.

    I recall you were trying to lose weight to fit into your mother in law gown.
    had you passed on the food stamps,
    It probably would have slipped right on.

    hey Kathy, speaking of steven weber,
    remember the time he told you he would “pay money to watch you masturbate a poodle”.?
    that was hellarious!

    anyway, you were on assistance much longer than just 2012, honey,
    it’s all on the internets!
    and I bet you still have an obamaphone.

    every word that comes out of your mouth is a lie str8 from the pits of hell.

    and I prove it every time…and you CAVE everytime.

    don’t worry, Kathy Smith, I am here to exorcise the lying demon out of your tortured, corpulent body.

    and arch, it seems you are right about most things. lol

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  14. @Nan: no worries about any sort of delay. I imagine you have a busy life outside of blog conversations!

    You seem confident that Paul had a visionary experience, but I don’t see any reason to think that what happened to Paul was different from what happened to the other apostles. It is possible that they all had visionary experiences, but that does not mean these were not of divine origin. Who knows what a resurrection body looks like or what it can do! In the gospels Jesus is curiously difficult to recognize and can appear in locked rooms and eat material food. Regardless of visionary experience or something otherworldly going on, you still need a reason to reject Paul. Just as I stated to Laurie, I think the only possible good reason at this point would be a Pauline doctrine that is logically contradicting a Jesus doctrine. It couldn’t be simply a new doctrine that is an application of Jesus’ teachings, but rather a logically contradicting one.

    I read maybe 1/3 of the webpage you referred me to and I’ll get to more later, but so far I have seen these kinds of arguments before. I hate saying this because it risks sounding dismissive but some of this is distastefully unscholarly, full of contrived leaps and opinions masked as facts. It wouldn’t be so bad if they weren’t masked as such.

    I agree with your point about the importance of history. In early Christianity there were probably many different opinions leading to many different “Christianities” and this also led to controversies. Maybe the only two unanimous teachings were the resurrection and the atonement. Also, Paul claimed to teach “Jesus”, he literally said he was given and taught “Jesus” several times (1 Cor 2:2, Gal 1:16). Of course, this is a metaphor for the teachings of Jesus and an application of the principles of those teachings. So, Paul invented metaphors and held certain opinions on the applications of Jesus’ teachings that might superficially appear to be different from other New Testament authors, but that’s not proof that they were. We need a solid argument to demonstrate this.

    I’m not sure what Greek mystery religions are, but it would not surprise me if they were similar to both Judaism and Christianity. All religions have certain things in common. I mean did Muhammad or Joseph Smith receive revelation from God any more than Moses, Ezekiel, or Jeremiah? You will have to be the judge of that, but just because there are similarities in their claims does not mean we can willy nilly accept or reject all three. There is nuance here, and there will be nuance between mystery religions and Pauline Christianity. I’m wondering if you could specify what your biggest concern is about this. Like what data point in Paul convinces you that he borrowed from a mystery religion?

    Also, I’m curious what do you think is Paul’s biggest doctrinal flub?
    -B

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  15. Paul,

    Hows the hating going?

    Helping you become a more rounded, self aware and successful human being?

    My experience has been that whenever I hate, it kind of distracts from that.

    O’doyle rules! right?

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  17. “and arch, it seems you are right about most things. lol”
    Like I’ve often said, I tend to drift in and out of lucidity —

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  18. “Jesus is curiously difficult to recognize and can appear in locked rooms and eat material food.” – According to four anonymous authors who never met him.

    I’ve always been a bit curious as to why, for a person who can beam in and out of locked rooms, anyone would need the door to a tomb to be rolled away. Unless, of course, something physical was removed from the tomb —

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  19. “I’m very interested in what you mean by “keep the commandments”. How do you keep the commandments any differently than Paul? Are you more Jewish than Paul was?”

    Apparently I am. I would never eat meat sacrificed to idols, or hang out in an idols temple. I also read Torah, so I know better than to add to or take away from YHWH’s law.

    Shabbat is over, and I have to go closer up the barn for the night, but I’ll be back!

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  23. Ooh my four leggers are sooo cute! Not as cute as my two leggers though! Everyone is bedded down for the night, but you were to late to say nite nite arch… sorry!

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