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Kathy Part 5

Nate

After breaking 1000 comments on the previous thread, I felt it was a good time to start another.

As a reminder, here are some of the most recent outstanding questions for Kathy:

From Laurie:

You said you answered my questions, and wish more questions were asked. Here are some questions that were not addressed.

Matt 23:8 read first

Philemon 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:14-17
1 Corinthians 12:27
2 Timothy 1:11
1 Timothy 2:7
Ephesians 4:11,12

Why is it that messiah says not to be called rabbi or father, but Paul it’s not obedient to this command?

Matt 10:7,8

1 Timothy 5:17,18
1 Corinthians 9:11,12

Messiah says here that he had given freely, go and freely give. Again, Paul is disobedient.

Matt 18:15

Galatians 2:11-14

Messiah said that if you have a problem with your brother, you should deal with it privately. Here Paul lashes out at Peter “before them all”.

Matt 9:10-12

2 Thessalonians 3:6,7

Yahusha said in the passage above that he came to call the sinner to repentance, not the righteous. Why would Paul want to separate from those that actually need him?

From William:

the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?

here’s all I’ve seen you provide:

1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.

2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.

3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.

4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.

5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.

In addition to these, I’d like to ask something of both Kathy and Laurie (Matt or Hayden or portal001 (Ryan) can chime in as well):

The Bible defines God as being all-loving, all-merciful, fair, just, etc. It can also be read as promising an eternity in Hell for those who don’t serve him correctly. As a believer, how do you square those two statements?

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Published by Nate

954 thoughts on “Kathy Part 5”

  1. “If you can dematerialize, what does it even mean to eat food? Wouldn’t eating food be like, you know, moving a stone?”

    I fail to see a relationship.

    Eating food could be a way of saying, “See, I’m real – not an hallucination.” On the other hand, we still have to consider who is reporting that he ate food – someone who never met him and wasn’t there. There’s an excellent reason as to why hearsay evidence is inadmissible in a court of law.

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  2. Yes, in fact he used to be my favorite apostle. It was his words that most often left my lips when discussing the scriptures. It took years to unlearn everything I thought was true and correct. His words, I am very familiar with.

    And you?

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  3. “…you were to late to say nite nite arch… sorry!” – save it and apply it to tomorrow, what do goats know?

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  5. @Laurie: yeah, it’s just that it doesn’t sound like you are engaging Paul but rather asserting your conclusion leaving out too many steps. I’m curious about your steps and your reasoning. 🙂

    @Arch: I like it better when you state the unpredictable.

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  6. Let’s start with the basics Brandon. Paul was not an apostle. There are requirements to be an apostle. Paul does not meet any of these. He could have been a disciple, but not an apostle. Anyone titled apostle, other than the true twelve, was false. Every one of the people you mentioned, were disciples of Saul not Messiah, except James. James (Yahusha’s brother) was not an apostle.

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  7. Laurie, you are just asserting that, not even engaging with any of the reasoning presented to you. It does not matter whether Paul was one of the symbolic 12, he could still have been sent by Jesus to proclaim the gospel, so you need to argue that he wasn’t. But, like I said above, I think that’s a lost cause.

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  8. I think you have that backwards. I have given scripture. You don’t see, because you choose not to see. If you want the truth, you will search for it. I don’t need to argue with you. Have a good night though

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  9. I’m interested in your reasoning, but you just aren’t communicating it yet and that’s why I’m asking you. Like saying “Paul is OK with eating meat sacrificed to idols” is to misunderstand everything Paul said about the subject. It’s like saying “Obama is OK with killing”. Well, yeah, he’s OK with killing terrorists in a war, but that shoudn’t be taken out of context to confirm a prejudice against him. So, I’m wondering what are the fine details of your reasoning really are.

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  10. Hey Thinker,
    Lets get at least one of these out of the way.
    1st Corinthians 8:10
    “For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;”

    Paul WAS being metaphorical but he was also being literal. He doesn’t care if you eat idol meat or not. It doesn’t matter. What’s bugging me is why are you arguing with Laurie about this? She’s a Jew. Of course she has a problem with it. It is to be expected. And why would you claim Paul was against eating idol meat when he clearly is all for it as long as it does not cause your brother to stumble?

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  11. Ruth,

    “Are you not aware that George W. Bush advocated for a pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants? Are you profoundly aware of the money it would cost this country to round all the illegal immigrants up and send them home?”

    Why would you think I wasn’t aware? Yet again you make incorrect assumptions based on nothing but your own bias/ lack of objectivity. Here’s what I stated:

    “.. that’s why Obama and co. want so badly to make it easier for illegals to become citizens.. for the votes.. ”

    Nothing implies that the Right are not trying to provide a path.. nothing implies I’m not aware of how unrealistic it would be to send all illegals back. Silly questions Ruth. Obama/ liberals don’t want a path at all, He’s all ready to bypass congress and give them all citizenship.

    “And if you think for one tiny minute that either party doesn’t grease palms and pander you’re sadly mistaken. ”

    I’m not “mistaken” sadly or otherwise.. I’m fully aware that corruption exists on both sides, but that’s not what I’m talking about… I’m referring to the actual policies.. what Obama is doing is the liberal/ SOCIALIST ideology.. to get people to DEPEND on the govt…. ultimately in place of God. That’s the whole idea whether all are aware or not. And those who are not are pawns.. being used to obtain that goal. Those people ignorantly believe that the govt. can make everything “fair”.. they’ve been brainwashed to believe the liberal lie that income inequality is the ultimate “injustice”.. and needs to be “righted”.. of course the wealthy liberal will get a pass.. just like they do now.. liberals with wealth are not pure evil like the wealthy conservatives all are.

    And those who push for govt. control and power aren’t interested in the very history that proves their ideology wrong.. that so many people died or lived in extreme poverty because of those kinds of controlling govt.s. None of that matters as much as taking down the “evil” (conservative) rich guy.. and again ultimately removing God from society. Freedom (capitalism) means freedom of religion..and liberals prefer that that just goes away. They don’t want to hear about God and His moral commands.. and they especially dont’ want to hear that they are “sinners”.. that they are “wrong”. Liberals today support policies that harm job creation.. and that’s all ok if their pride and ego can stay in tact. The more people are dependent on govt., the more power govt. has, the easier it will be to take AWAY/ silence those, through govt., who use their 1st amendment rights to say things that they don’t want to hear.

    So, the numbers you’ve given Ruth don’t tell the whole story.. it’s a snowball effect.. the more who are dependent on govt. the more working people are taxed, and the more working people are taxed, the more they will stop working and opting for govt. assistance instead.. and that means those who are still left working, will be taxed even MORE.. less workers with more people needing THEIR money.. anyone with common sense can easily see that those few people left will leave the country, going somewhere where they get to keep most of what they earn instead of giving it to the govt.

    This IS what liberal policies support.. and the logic is obvious.. it can’t work. But, since we’re talking about liberals, “logic” isn’t part of the equation.. liberals LACK logic. Lack of logic combined with pride and ego.. equals America’s downfall… WATCH! Oh, and add in the fact that God is going to turn His back on this country.. again, because of liberals. And you all wonder why I’m always attacking liberals.. I see what you all have chosen to be blind to.. and what you’ve chosen to be A PART OF. You are THE problem.. all due to pride and ego.

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  12. Hi Brandon,

    I’m with Laurie on this one. It’s not her who need to prove that Paul is not an apostle but rather you need to establish that he is one since he came in later after the new 12 (Matthias) has been established. On what basis should we treat him as an apostle? Certainly it is possible that God used Paul to spread the gospel but he needs to prove his credentials. Unfortunately whatever Paul says about himself cannot be used as testimony isn’t it?

    Note that Paul has to talk about the legitimacy of his apostleship in the bible, suggesting that people were not convinced that he was actually one. So why don’t you explain fully why he is one rather than shifting the onus to those who don’t believe? It is akin to me saying that I am an apostle and if you don’t believe me is because you are closed minded. Jesus could be using me too.

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  13. “@Arch: I like it better when you state the unpredictable.”
    I’ll try to do better at living down to your expectations – but if I did that, wouldn’t that make me even MORE predictable?

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  14. “Why would you think I wasn’t aware?”
    Because you’ve made it so obvious that there’s very little, based in reality, that you ARE aware of.

    “and again ultimately removing God from society” – not from society, Kathy, only from government.

    I’ve read the rest of your Rush Limbaughesque rant – too ludicrous to respond to. Tell me, does your daughter feel as you do? Or does she feel you’re as nuts as we do?

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  15. @Powell, RE: “Unfortunately whatever Paul says about himself cannot be used as testimony”
    Also, since it has been established by the Acts Seminar that the author of the Acts was using the letters of Paul to write his own book, his value as an independent witness corroborates nothing, although I’ve no doubt that Brandon would prefer to think it does.

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  17. You know, Kathy, I read all that and you fail to provide any evidence of any of your claims. Then again, you did say your claims are your evidence. *sigh*

    I don’t really want to debate this with you. Not because you’re right, or because I’m afraid of you, or because I’m caving but because you haven’t bothered to educate yourself nor base yourself in anything resembling reality.

    The only thing I will respond to is your allegation that President Obama is all ready to bypass congress to give them all citizenship. First of all, that’s not exactly what he’s all ready to bypass congress to do. Second of all he’s got a little over a year to do that. If he hasn’t already done it, I doubt he’s going to now. He did threaten to bypass congress to pass immigration reform on his own(which, by the way, I do not agree with) because since the GOP has had house majority they’ve pretty much shot down and tied his hands on anything hoped to accomplish.

    The extreme partisanship that has permeated his tenure in the White House is atrocious. It has rendered his presidency impotent. That’s the thing, Kathy, that you and many others fail to realize – the president rarely acts on his own. That is why we have a congress. Who has control of that, Kathy?

    You read what you wanted to into what I wrote so you could accuse me of being THE problem. You are the problem, Kathy. Your Henny Penny attitude contributes to the continued divisiveness of the country. If you want to solve anything maybe a better approach would be learning all you can about the different positions and trying to bring the sides together instead of driving them farther apart. Better yet, Kathy, why not run for office? I’m sure you’d be great!

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  19. Thanks Hayden and Powell!

    I have had a headache every day for the last week and a half, so I am feeling a bit short tempered. Normally, I’m not bothered by passive aggressive insults. More than anything, I don’t have time to discuss something when evidence is not examined, and logic is dismissed. Not that this Kathy thread hasn’t been mildly amusing!

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  21. Brandon,

    There are three places where Paul discusses meat sacrificed to idols. I will post them here

    1 Corinthians 8 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

    4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

    7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.

    9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

    1 Corinthians 10:18-33 Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?

    All to the Glory of God
    23 All things are lawful for me,[c] but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me,[d] but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being.

    25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.”[e]

    27 If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake. 28 But if anyone says to you, “This was offered to idols,” do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience’ sake;[f] for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.”[g] 29 “Conscience,” I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience? 30 But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks?

    31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

    Romans 14

    Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

    2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

    3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

    4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

    5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

    6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

    7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

    8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.

    9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

    10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

    11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

    12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

    13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.

    14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

    15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

    16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

    17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

    19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

    20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

    21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

    22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

    23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

    Here are the verses that are against eating meat sacrificed to idols from the new testament only.

    Acts 15:20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.

    Acts 15:29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

    Revelations 2:14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

    Rev 2:20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow[c] that woman[d] Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce[e] My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

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  22. Hi Ruth!

    Yeah, I think I need to see a chiropractor. It kinda tweaked my neck. But other than that I’m doing great. I’m even allowed to get my face wet now, which makes washing my hair way easier!

    I’m pretty conservative, as I’m sure you guessed, but I enjoy reading your posts!

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  23. I’m pretty conservative, as I’m sure you guessed, but I enjoy reading your posts!

    😀 Thanks, Laurie. Truth be told, I’m actually pretty fiscally conservative as well. I’m not sure if I could be labeled moderate since I’m a bit more socially liberal. I think Libertarian probably best describes me. I think we should be fiscally responsible and on some of these social issues that are so polarizing I believe the motto ‘live and let live’. Though I do recognize a need for the social programs we have, they could be better managed. I just don’t get the point of all the fear-mongering.

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  24. @Haydenlinder
    Howdy, thanks for jumping in. Please let me explain my problem with this. You are pulling a single verse out of context and render an interpretation. The same thing can be done with Jesus or anyone’s words and it equally distorts the overall meaning.

    Let me explain 1 Corinthians 8. The most important thing to remember is Paul is not writing this letter to us, Paul is writing this letter to the Corinthians who were very liberal judging by what the letter addresses and Paul’s tone. Notice that Paul never actually says explicitly whether eating meat sacrificed to idols is kosher or not. So, what is Paul doing? He is trying to REASON with them.

    The liberal Corinthians seem to be arguing this: “We know that there is only one God, so these offerings to false gods are just a ruse, therefore we can eat from them because it’s just an ruse.” Paul is trying to get them to think about this. He starts out by agreeing with their argument, but with a game-changing caveat. He says (paraphrase): “Think about the consequences of your liberal policy. Some of the weaker Christians who are prone to go back to paganism may inadvertently go back because of your liberal policy.” Then, Paul puts forth a principle from Jesus saying that we should not cause the weak to stumble. Jesus had said, “If any of you put a stumbling block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if a great millstone were hung around your neck and you were thrown into the sea.” (Mark 9:42). So, applying Jesus’ principle to this situation, he concludes that he would never eat an offering because of the risk.

    The interesting thing (again) is that Paul never actually give the Corinthians an explicit command. He provides a counterargument based on Jesus’ teachings, then concludes that he himself will not. Why does he do this? We don’t know for sure, but we can guess. It may be that he thinks reasoning with them has a better chance of succeeding than blasting them with a command. It’s like talking to a child. It is the difference between “Don’t play in the street” and “Don’t play in the street because of the danger of cars that drive fast”.

    You said: “What’s bugging me is why are you arguing with Laurie on this?”
    We were discussing some issues of Paul, and it seemed amicable until last night.

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  25. I voted for Bush, then never voted again. I believe they are all evil. The devil in blue or the devil in pink.
    Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s how it feels.

    When I lived in Washington, I voted for Dino Rossi, he won and they recounted the votes 7 times. After seven recounts Christine Gregoire won.

    So from here… why vote at all? Sure, if you don’t vote, I guess you can’t complain right?

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