After breaking 1000 comments on the previous thread, I felt it was a good time to start another.
As a reminder, here are some of the most recent outstanding questions for Kathy:
From Laurie:
You said you answered my questions, and wish more questions were asked. Here are some questions that were not addressed.
Matt 23:8 read first
Philemon 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:14-17
1 Corinthians 12:27
2 Timothy 1:11
1 Timothy 2:7
Ephesians 4:11,12Why is it that messiah says not to be called rabbi or father, but Paul it’s not obedient to this command?
Matt 10:7,8
1 Timothy 5:17,18
1 Corinthians 9:11,12Messiah says here that he had given freely, go and freely give. Again, Paul is disobedient.
Matt 18:15
Galatians 2:11-14
Messiah said that if you have a problem with your brother, you should deal with it privately. Here Paul lashes out at Peter “before them all”.
Matt 9:10-12
2 Thessalonians 3:6,7
Yahusha said in the passage above that he came to call the sinner to repentance, not the righteous. Why would Paul want to separate from those that actually need him?
From William:
the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
In addition to these, I’d like to ask something of both Kathy and Laurie (Matt or Hayden or portal001 (Ryan) can chime in as well):
The Bible defines God as being all-loving, all-merciful, fair, just, etc. It can also be read as promising an eternity in Hell for those who don’t serve him correctly. As a believer, how do you square those two statements?
Finding Truth 
“postmodern” – I think he learned a new word, Howie, and if he uses it three times, it’s his.
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Kat,
I’ve said in your threads at least twice, if not three times or more (at least one of which was directed at you) that I don’t like “rata” as a nickname.
About your political ramblings, I didn’t say there could not possibly be any connection. I’m saying you’re putting the cart before the horse. Let’s make some glue.
You’ve not even explained any way in which it’s prophecy fulfillment anyway.
…Anybody here want to agree with me on this? Or should Nate just close this train wreck*, and let those having otherwise productive conversations do it elsewhere?
* Many here (Kathy excluded) have offered insightful and informative posts, which I’ve appreciated. But really–have we had enough?
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“your pride and ego blinders won’t let you”
Doesn’t your Bible tell you, Kathy, not to worry about the mote (small object) in your neighbor’s eye, as long as you have a beam (large object) in your own? You really should read it sometime.
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I’m sorry, I didn’t intend to post a whole bunch of verses without discussion. I fully intended to break these down. I just got busy!
Brandon, if you really want to know why I feel the way I do, this is going to be a very long discussion. Would you be opposed to discussing this on your blog? I’m fine to discuss it here if it’s okay with Nate, but I feel the Kathy threads coming an end.
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“I was being snarky with Arch” – I’m all too familiar with your snarkiness, Brandon.
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“vacationing when he SHOULD be giving his full attention to the serious problems presently going on..”
You’re aware, of course Kathy, that your hero, Little George W, vacationed at his ranch in Crawford for three days, while Hurricane Katrina bore down on New Orleans – heck of a job, Georgie –!
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“.Doesn’t your Bible tell you, Kathy, not to worry about the mote (small object) in your neighbor’s eye, as long as you have a beam (large object) in your own?”
…or a fifth of Jim Beam in your belly.
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I read your comment to my mom Ron! She is the one that always harps on me to vote. I thought that was great! She did not.
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Brandon, I think you misunderstand Paul’s words in these passages. I tried to quote the full context, but what you see, and what I see, are very different.
In the first passage Paul says it is fine to eat meat sacrificed to idols if your conscience is clear, but if you think the idol is something and your conscience is weak, you should not do it. Beware that your Liberty doesn’t cause someone to stumble. When he says ” liberty” here, it is the liberty from the law he is referencing. The law is simple, you do not eat meat sacrificed to idols.
Ill discuss the other two in a bit
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Okay, I’m back. The second passage Paul says that all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. Why is his liberty judged by another mans conscience? If you give thanks for your food, why are you thought of as evil.
Again, if your conscience is clear your all good. This is not what messiah taught.
The third set of scriptures from Paul are similar to the second, where he says as long as you are fully persuaded in your own mind, that is what counts. This is not what Torah teaches.
The remaining scriptures are against this practice, and the two in revelations are right beside the scripture about the false apostles. Nothing is put in the scriptures by accident. We are meant to figure out who the false apostles are. If it wasn’t Paul and is followers, is there another apostle that lied and taught to eat meat sacrificed to idols?
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I’m just glad to see, Kathy, that your daughter was too strong to fall for your indoctrination process. Maybe she observed your behavior, and saw herself in 20 years if she continued to follow in your footsteps. And a little child shall lead them —
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Ruth,
“Kathy, why would I believe you on anything you’ve said. You provide no data to back up your arguments and then you call anyone else with whose opinion you disagree dishonest. ”
Incredible.. you just did what you accused me of doing.. where’s your back up to this accusation Ruth?? You are wrong, I back up what my accusations and claims.. there might be a few exceptions, like the silly issue with Arch… where I had to explain that there’s no need to give him proof that the majority belief for the last 2 thousand years has been that the title names are the authors of the Gospels. It’s commonly known/ agreed upon.
So, again, YOU just made an accusation against me.. yet again, without any backup.. without including my actual words or actual examples. You just did what you JUST accused me of doing.. IN your comment that accuses me! Liberals.. honestly.
“George W. Bush said there were WMD’s in Iraq. Where are they? Oh, yeah. There weren’t any. They all lie, Kathy.”
Wrong again Ruth.. this is more leftist propaganda that isn’t true. HOW did Bush “lie”? What is your evidence that he “knew” there were no WMDs while he claimed there were. That’s what constitutes a lie. The all had good reason to believe there were WMDs.. he was extremely disappointed and surprised when they weren’t found. That’s not a lie.. like say, when Obama claimed that people could keep their doctor.. or when he claimed that He did everything in his power to help those being attacked in Benghazi.
“Kathy I’m asking you to just stop. We are never going to agree and if your only desire is to tell me how wrong my opinion is then we’re wasting our time. I’ve provided data. I’ve given sources. I’ve developed my own opinion on the matters. I don’t tout a liberal agenda nor a conservative one. The only thing you can do is recite right-wing bull.
Fine. It doesn’t “seem” anything. You’ve proven over and over that you have no intention of having rational dialogue. All you know how to do is question people’s honesty and call them liberals. You haven’t an original thought in your head.”
aaaaand that would just be more empty rhetoric.. personal accusations, false claims and dishonest obfuscation without any actual back up/ proof.
All I’m asking for is honesty and objectivity Ruth. The reason you are so frustrated is because you cannot give it to me, even when I’ve backed you, or Nate or Arch or William or Laurie or anyone else here in a corner.. it’s clear that it aint gonna happen. 😦
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Arch, I was extremely angry with Bush over Katrina. And that’s because I’m honest. I’m objective even when it doesn’t go my way… so..yet AGAIN, what exactly is your point? That since Bush was at home.. where he WASN’T playing golf but still working.. that that excuses Obama from playing golf for days and days while ISIS is growing and killing thousands of innocent people? Then coming back from vacation and ADMITTING that he had no strategy worked out yet??
You get another giant FAIL, Arch.
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And, my daughter knows right from wrong.. she’s NOT a liberal.. she’s a Christian.. and I thank God every day for that.
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The worst part about this thread is that it has me reading Kathy’s comments again.
Oh well.
@Ruth, When Kathy makes you angry just remember, it’s good for the circulation.:)
Had a couple of thoughts about a big comment you did earlier today.
“President Obama is all ready to bypass congress to give them all citizenship.” I know he threatened to do this but he can’t really do that. Checks and Balances I mean.
Also, “The extreme partisanship that has permeated his tenure in the White House is atrocious.” And also not new. It was the same for George W and for Clinton before him. And yes it was just as bad. I am a moderate BTW. Pro Gun/Pro Choice.
@Nan “And to that, can you say Amen?” AMEN!
You know preachers preach this time and time again and still it just gets shuffled off by the masses. Don;t TALK Christian. ACT Christian.
@Ratamacue0 I saw where you corrected Kathy about not abreviating your Screen name and that reminded me to ask, what does “Ratamacue”mean?
“* Many here (Kathy excluded) have offered insightful and informative posts, which I’ve appreciated. But really–have we had enough?” – What? Are you tired?
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“…the title names are the authors of the Gospels. It’s commonly known/ agreed upon – by the uneducated, like you, yes, but by actual, learned biblical scholars, no.
“even when I’ve backed you, or Nate or Arch or William or Laurie or anyone else here in a corner..” – Wow, talk about self-delusion!
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“that excuses Obama from playing golf for days and days while ISIS is growing and killing thousands of innocent people? Then coming back from vacation and ADMITTING that he had no strategy worked out yet??”
Once again, Kathy, you prove you don’t know how the world works. Do you honestly believe that while he’s playing golf, everything stands still? He doubtless has all kinds of people doing things in the background, with whom he’s in constant touch. As for “ADMITTING that he had no strategy worked out,” what’s he supposed to do? Say, “Sure we know exactly what we’re going to do, and here it it – oh, btw, ISIS, if you want to take this down and any of you don’t have a pencil, Tweet me your address (140 characters or less), and I’ll have one sent over to you, by drone –“
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“And, my daughter knows right from wrong.. she’s NOT a liberal.. she’s a Christian..”
I’ve heard otherwise, and I’ll believe ANYone before I’ll believe you.
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“The worst part about this thread is that it has me reading Kathy’s comments again.”
The US Constitution expressly forbids cruel and unusual punishment!
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“by the uneducated, like you, yes, but by actual, learned biblical scholars, no.”
And who would those “learned” biblical scholars before the 21st century be Arch?
Biased liberals. Before them, the majority believed it was the titled authors.. and I’m pretty sure that is STILL the case, of the majority, today. There’s no compelling evidence that overrides the evidence for the named authors.
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“Once again, Kathy, you prove you don’t know how the world works. Do you honestly believe that while he’s playing golf, everything stands still? He doubtless has all kinds of people doing things in the background, with whom he’s in constant touch. ”
Right.. it’s me that is clueless.. as if Obama has anyone doing anything.. they’ve got to tell him how to act, how to talk to the American people.. he’s a puppet right now, he has no interest whatsoever in what’s going on.. everytime he makes a speech, he’s worried about how Islam is portrayed more than anything else. He’s the WORST president this country has ever seen.
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Kathy bleats: “And who would those “learned” biblical scholars before the 21st century be Arch?”
Already answered on at least four previous occasions. Seek and ye shall find.
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Silly Arch,
Obama’s strategy is to tweet “Give me your address so that I can send you the new iphone 6 plus”
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Do you ever feel like you’re trying to explain to a racist how the Jews don’t actually control the media?
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@Nan: I agree with you, and I appreciate your point of view.
@Powellpowers: I’m sensing negative vibes from you. I don’t think you have followed everything I said on this thread, so I would appreciate it if you took the time to look into that before coming to conclusions.
@Laurie: I’m not convinced by your case for Paul approving eating meat sacrificed to idols. And, you did not engage my reading of 1 Cor 8.
Ultimately I’m very interested in opinions and ideas, and that’s why I engaged you in conversation, but I can see now that divorcing Paul from the Messiah is intellectually indefensible. Even if your interpretations are correct (which I don’t think they are), you’ve still got a gigantic theological problem to deal with – Paul’s writings are the majority of the New Testament, and since the author of Luke-Acts was pro-Paul, you might as well cut these books out as well. If your idea of following the law looks like Reformed Judaism, you will have to cut out Mark as well since Mark’s author thought Jesus declared all foods kosher (Mark 7:19). From my perspective you’ve got to rationalize too much data that is in favor of Paul (i.e., Acts and 2 Peter), and you are forced to try to find something against Paul like this meat issue. To me cutting out Paul would be intellectually indefensible even if I loved Reformed Judaism.
So I’m glad we talked, but I do not think we will benefit by discussing this subject further. Thanks
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