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Kathy Part 5

Nate

After breaking 1000 comments on the previous thread, I felt it was a good time to start another.

As a reminder, here are some of the most recent outstanding questions for Kathy:

From Laurie:

You said you answered my questions, and wish more questions were asked. Here are some questions that were not addressed.

Matt 23:8 read first

Philemon 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:14-17
1 Corinthians 12:27
2 Timothy 1:11
1 Timothy 2:7
Ephesians 4:11,12

Why is it that messiah says not to be called rabbi or father, but Paul it’s not obedient to this command?

Matt 10:7,8

1 Timothy 5:17,18
1 Corinthians 9:11,12

Messiah says here that he had given freely, go and freely give. Again, Paul is disobedient.

Matt 18:15

Galatians 2:11-14

Messiah said that if you have a problem with your brother, you should deal with it privately. Here Paul lashes out at Peter “before them all”.

Matt 9:10-12

2 Thessalonians 3:6,7

Yahusha said in the passage above that he came to call the sinner to repentance, not the righteous. Why would Paul want to separate from those that actually need him?

From William:

the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?

here’s all I’ve seen you provide:

1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.

2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.

3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.

4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.

5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.

In addition to these, I’d like to ask something of both Kathy and Laurie (Matt or Hayden or portal001 (Ryan) can chime in as well):

The Bible defines God as being all-loving, all-merciful, fair, just, etc. It can also be read as promising an eternity in Hell for those who don’t serve him correctly. As a believer, how do you square those two statements?

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Published by Nate

954 thoughts on “Kathy Part 5”

  2. “According to your argument, a person who was killed because they wouldn’t denounce santa claus’ existence caries the same testimonial evidence as someone who won’t denounce Jesus.” – that’s right – none. All it says, is how deeply they believe their delusion is true.

    “Again, look at a jury.. whose testimony are they more likely to believe.. someone who is a Christian or someone who claims that santa clause is real and still delivering gifts in a sleigh?” In a Buddhist society, 50-50.

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  3. According to your argument,
    a person who was killed because they wouldn’t denounce santa claus’ existence caries the
    same testimonial evidence as someone who won’t denounce Jesus.

    Santa Clause is a really bad example, Kathy. I said religions. The penalty for denouncing other religions carries the same(and sometimes more) of a penalty than denying Jesus. The fact that people died for a lie is what I was getting at.

    You specifically said:

    “what is the chance that a person will allow their life to be taken for a lie or a belief that has little compelling evidence? Very low.”

    The chances are actually quite high that a person will allow their life to be taken for a lie and, according to you, a belief that has little compelling evidence. That was my point. Not the truth of the religion. This is a point you don’t seem to be able to grasp. That people are willing to die in the name of religion regardless of it’s truth. All they need to do is believe it’s true.

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  4. “I just have to leave you all to your, sorry, but.. deliberate ignorance.” – Does that mean we won’t have Chatty Kathy to kick around anymore? It’s a miracle!

    Seriously, you’re not a bad person – go out, get some REAL knowledge, then drop back by (when you can’t stay so long) —

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  5. @haydendlinder

    Haha I was converted and baptized in a Pentecostal charismatic independent church when I was in the military. Got into depression and all that which made me ultra susceptible to “feel good” things. As I continue to serve in the church (was a worship director at some point) and gained more knowledge in the bible, I realized that a lot of the things that my church was doing was going against the bible (or more specifically what Paul said). Hence this led me to move to a much more conservative group -e.g. methodist church where I also served as a lay leader for a group of young adults.

    Anyway, cut the long story short – i was “born again” as a charismatic, read more on the bible and realized i am a fundie, and then after continuing more i became atheist. Haha, I must say this is a different journey than most – generally what I hear is fundie -> liberal christians -> atheist/agnostic

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  6. Powell – I don’t know you, so I don’t know if you’re familiar with Victoria Neuronotes – her blogsite has some fascinating things to say about what you say you experienced, and you might like to look into it.

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  7. Hi Arch,

    Yeah I’ve read some of her stuff. Isn’t it amazing what the brain can do?

    On my journey to be an atheist, one thing that I couldn’t got out of my head was the praying in tongues and the slain by the spirit. I myself have never been slained (pushed down yes), but a lot of my friends all swore by it, and I have seen people getting into fits and became fully immobilized during the “release of the Holy Spirit”. We must acknowledge that this is very powerful testimony for God for those involved and those who are looking on.

    However, once I got wind of this:

    http://www.youtube.com.sg/watch?v=bxb0PCBV0vk

    and

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI

    All the “touches” by the holy spirit became painfully obvious and I became a full fledged atheist.

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  8. “I couldn’t got out of my head was the praying in tongues and the slain by the spirit” According to Paul, “tongues” is the language of the angels.

    I was a little confused though, by your links to “Fake Aikido Master vs MMA ” and “The Human Stun Gun’ Investigation’.

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  9. “I just have to leave you all to your, sorry, but.. deliberate ignorance.” – Quick, Nate – lock the door before she changes her mind and comes back!

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  10. @Laurie: I know your questions were not directed at me, but I could not resist. 🙂

    ***Why is it that messiah says not to be called rabbi or father, but Paul does is not obedient to this command?***
    Taking the whole passage into account, Jesus was not prohibiting the use of those titles of honor. He was teaching that we ought to give to God the highest honor. To paraphrase that passage I would say: don’t go off seeking honor for oneself for its own sake like the rabbis have done, rather humble yourself and give honor to others. Give the highest honor to God, because no one on earth deserves the honor that is owed to God. There’s much more going on, but this is a quick way of seeing it.

    ***Messiah says here that he had given freely, go and freely give. Again, Paul is disobedient.***
    Jesus was sending out his disciples on a short term mission with very specific instructions. However, Paul was setting up permanent churches which reasonably might require a full time working pastor. They had very different goals in mind, and as such had different means of achieving their goals. This is not to say that pastors all need to be paid. Paul was not paid. There are plenty of pastors who work other jobs out there. It just that if you are laboring full time for the church, and not on a short term mission sent by Jesus himself, you might need some money to live on.

    ***Messiah said that if you have a problem with your brother, you should deal with it privately. Here Paul lashes out at Peter ‘before them all.’***
    Peter’s hypocrisy was different from the situation Jesus was addressing. Jesus spoke about someone sinning against another, but Peter was sinning against the entire church and Paul saw this as putting the gospel at stake given Peter’s status in the church, so this was a very grave matter. Also, Peter’s hypocrisy was public which raises the stakes. To Paul the circumstances justified a public rebuke. There is probably more going on that we are unaware of, but the point is that Paul’s rebuke is not a model. It’s just an story that is rather incomplete seeing how Paul only wrote a few sentences on the subject.

    ***Yahusha said in the passage above that he came to call the sinner to repentance, not the righteous. Why would Paul want to separate from those that actually need him?***
    A close reading of the entire passage gives a better understanding. Paul was not saying to completely withdraw from these people, because he later says to “warn them as believers.” (2 Thes 3:15). It seems there was a faction of Thessalonian Christians who had given up their professional work possibly to take advantage of the church’s generosity. Paul commands them to not fall into that trap. He then says to warn these freeloaders. Also, in Galatians Paul has additional policy about when church members sin. He says to restore them in a spirit of gentleness (chapter 6 verse 1). That’s pretty Christ-like if you ask me! Paul’s command to warn and restore are perfectly in line with Jesus’ interaction with the “sinners”.

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  11. “I could not resist. 🙂” – Sure you can, Brandon – I have every faith in you, just try harder! Give it all you’ve got!

    See what happens, Nate, when you don’t lock the door fast enough?

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  13. @Arch

    Ah, apologies.

    What I meant to say was that there are people who genuinely believe their bodies have special powers. This influence is not only restricted to the person under delusion, but to those who believe in him/her as well.

    Case in point, the “masters” in the youtube videos have students, and they are seemingly affected by the “power” of these masters. These are earnest and sincere people, who really believed in the power so much so that their bodies started to fake it without them knowing.
    It is very telling that unbelievers are not affected by such problems.

    This leads me to believe that getting slain by the holy spirit, speaking in tongues are the same category.

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  14. “I just have to leave you all to your, sorry, but.. deliberate ignorance.” – kathy

    well, i’d just like to add that this is for the best if you’re going to continually get off topic, ignore questions and points, just so that you can wallow in tangential issues.

    There are much better ways for us all to spend our time.

    Not one of your questions went unanswered and many times your questions were answered multiple times by several people, while you routinely and consistently avoided our questions.

    you say “deliberate ignorance?” Well, why are you deliberately being ignorant? what does that accomplish?

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  15. The Bible defines God as being all-loving, all-merciful, fair, just, etc. It can also be read as promising an eternity in Hell for those who don’t serve him correctly. As a believer, how do you square those two statements?

    When Jesus died on the Cross, it was not just a physical death.

    As He hung there and died, He took the transgressions of the whole human race upon Himself.

    God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God

    (2 Corinthians 5:21).

    So my understanding is that it was not just a physical burden of crucifixion (for many people had been crucified) but a very real, final spiritual offering to take the punishment of every… single…transgression that every single person has or will commit.

    If they accept this offering by God, This frees people up to become new creations in God, free from the lineage of transgression, and free to live a new life of love and compassion, according to the teachings Jesus also outlined during His time on earth.

    Furthermore, God also gives His Spirit (Comforter and Counsellor) to those who believe and accept His grace.

    This is the Good News, as I understand it.

    Sin is understood to be transgression of Gods Law. Since we all have transgressed Gods Law in some ways, God became a man to show us by example, and to sacrifice His very self to make a Way for us to be free. This is Gods Grace, in that Jesus died for the very people that were attacking, belittling and trying to kill Him.

    In His obedience He died, so we might have life. Hence why Jesus stated that He is the Way and the Truth and the Life, No one comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). This is because there was/is only one way in which God became a man to take on the punishment of all that accept the offering of Himself to take on their punishment. The Word became flesh only once through one person. Only He can take it.

    And His Resurrection was the manifestation that. He, Jesus the Christ, God overcame death. He died for each one of us, He suffered for our transgressions. He was obedient until the very end of His ministry on earth.

    Philippians 2:6-11:

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Hence why Paul stated that

    if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

    (1 Corinthians 15:17).

    So Gods Love involves His willingness and invitation to give us another way. A way to be with God if we choose so. Jesus expressed that it is finished (John 19:30).

    I think this is worth a read in regards to this:

    http://carm.org/questions/about-jesus/why-did-jesus-cry-out-my-god-my-god-why-have-you-forsaken-me

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  17. And I know the link I gave is a apologetics site,

    I’m not a great fan of apologetics. but I linked it because that specific article makes some decent points, which I think if specific content includes points worth considering, then it doesn’t matter which website those points happen to come from 🙂

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  19. “Not one of your questions went unanswered and many times your questions were answered multiple times by several people, while you routinely and consistently avoided our questions.</em"

    That's Kathy's debating technique, William – Ali called it, "Rope-a-Dope" – float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

    “I just have to leave you all to your, sorry, but.. deliberate ignorance.” – kathy Sweet kid though she may be, Kathy can brighten a room just by leaving it. SO nice not to wake up at the crack of nine, to a hundred comment emails!

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  20. So how do you mesh this understanding of Jesus’ sacrifice with the idea of an eternal punishment?

    Hell seems to be prepared to the devil and his angels, not specifically for humanity. You have done previous posts on Sheol and Hades. Whether or not a torment is for eternity, is a question I don’t personally have an answer for.

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  23. The reason I was emphasising The Atonement in regards to your question on Hell was because from my perspective, a father that is prepared to come down to his child’s level of comprehension and take his punishment for his child’s transgression by paying the cost himself, is a father that loves his child. If that specific cost requires him to lay down his life for his child to avoid that child making such a payment himself, then that fathers love is expressed in his willingness to do this, and still give his child the option to do what he wanted with this.

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  25. Hell seems to be prepared to the devil and his angels, not specifically for humanity. You have done previous posts on Sheol and Hades. Whether or not a torment is for eternity, is a question I don’t personally have an answer for.

    I* Just read what I posted… didn’t mean that to sound short before btw Nate

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