After breaking 1000 comments on the previous thread, I felt it was a good time to start another.
As a reminder, here are some of the most recent outstanding questions for Kathy:
From Laurie:
You said you answered my questions, and wish more questions were asked. Here are some questions that were not addressed.
Matt 23:8 read first
Philemon 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:14-17
1 Corinthians 12:27
2 Timothy 1:11
1 Timothy 2:7
Ephesians 4:11,12Why is it that messiah says not to be called rabbi or father, but Paul it’s not obedient to this command?
Matt 10:7,8
1 Timothy 5:17,18
1 Corinthians 9:11,12Messiah says here that he had given freely, go and freely give. Again, Paul is disobedient.
Matt 18:15
Galatians 2:11-14
Messiah said that if you have a problem with your brother, you should deal with it privately. Here Paul lashes out at Peter “before them all”.
Matt 9:10-12
2 Thessalonians 3:6,7
Yahusha said in the passage above that he came to call the sinner to repentance, not the righteous. Why would Paul want to separate from those that actually need him?
From William:
the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
In addition to these, I’d like to ask something of both Kathy and Laurie (Matt or Hayden or portal001 (Ryan) can chime in as well):
The Bible defines God as being all-loving, all-merciful, fair, just, etc. It can also be read as promising an eternity in Hell for those who don’t serve him correctly. As a believer, how do you square those two statements?
Finding Truth 
“…two high-school friends, both unbelievers, challenged me out of the blue to defend my beliefs one night at dinner”
Interesting, and curious as to why, when he claims to have been a skeptic, to non-believing friends would challenge him to defend his beliefs. Fellow atheists, have I ever challenged any of you to defend your beliefs? Why would I?
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“This doctrine, though unfounded in Scripture…”
Not only is it unfounded in scripture, scripture says Yeshua himself expressly refutes it when he says, “Why do you call me good? None is good except the father in heaven.”
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Arch, have you read this article? http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/30/did-jesus-exist-growing-number-of-scholars-dont-think-so/#comment-1577153945
I just started reading it, but so far have found it quite fascinating. Altho’ it would be an excellent source of general information for Kathy, sad to say I know her God will never allow her fingers to even hover over the link.
Especially liked this paragraph (you know why):
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Kathy, did you ever take this quiz? http://exchristian.net/3/ You might be surprised about the results.
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Nan,
“It’s gonna’ take a whole lot more than Limbaugh’s book to convince me. ESPECIALLY when (based on his interview with Kathryn Jean Lopez), he claims that Jesus is both fully divine and fully human.
Are you aware this is a doctrine that was put into place 325 years after Jesus?
As a lawyer, one would think he would have based his “conversion” on the “evidence.”
Nan, this IS supported by scripture.. that it was put in place years later doesn’t matter.
Jesus had to be fully human or His example of how to be obedient and without sin wouldn’t have carried the same weight. He’s been through the same trials (and much more) that we go through.
“Because some thought Jesus was man and others maintained he was God, the council at Nicaea A.D. 325 — headed by a pagan political emperor, namely, Constantine, decided on a God-man to please both sides. ”
Are the bold letters of “pagan political emperor” supposed to be the supportive evidence that he decided on both God and man in order “to please both sides”? That’s very weak evidence Nan.. these are the common popular assumptions made by atheists but there’s no evidence that just because he was pagan that he didn’t want to get it right. There were over 300 bishops in the council.. why so many if the objective wasn’t to get it right??
Nan
September 9, 2014 at 4:25 pm
Oh yeah … need to add another excerpt from the interview where Limbaugh says:
… we are instructed to offer the reasons for our faith — with gentleness and respect.
Did you read that, Kathy?
Nan, that’s my goal believe it or not.. but you all make it really hard sometimes.
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Nate,
“I’ll put it on my Amazon list, Kathy. It sounds similar to a number of other apologetic books I’ve read as well.
To balance things out, do you have any intention of reading anything from the opposite point of view?”
That is only fair.. but again, I would just like a little assurance that it’s objective. One of those books, neither you or anyone else could give a basic idea/ description of how to get something from nothing.. it was pointless to read something when those who had read it couldn’t even give an overview.. and the other, I had asked for examples of what makes that book “the one” but I didn’t get any except for one from Nan I think, and it proved me right.. the bias was evident. I don’t think you gave any examples.. just how to get it for free.
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The point of the bolded “pagan political emperor” is to show that he really didn’t care one way or the other so he came up with a compromise to appease both sides.
Re: your comment — ” … this IS supported by scripture..” Please provide the chapter(s) and verse(s), Kathy.
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Constantine’s wanted to make a universal religion for the sole purpose of ruling the world. Join together paganism and Christianity to unite them and rule peacefully over them all. That is why you worship on Sunday, and Saint Peter’s basilica has a statute of Jupiter in it. They moved all the pagan idols into churches and labeled them names like Mary and Peter. They changed the worship to Sunday because there was a large population of Sun worshippers.
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This doesn’t mean your religion is wrong Kathy, but you should study the history behind it, because there are problems. The truth is always true, so if you are right there is no reason not to test all things. By the way, what Ryan believes, is very close to what I believe. I’m not your enemy, but neither is anyone else here.
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I can’t keep looking at my phone, because I had a migraine yesterday and it’s not completely gone, but I’ll check back tomorrow. Let me know if I miss anything!
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Limbaugh makes this statement in the video: “It’s so obvious … the glory for the creation and the idea that this just happened spontaneously, I think defies common sense.”
To me, the idea of a “GOD” defies common sense. Think about it. You can’t see him/her/it/they. You can’t hear him/her/it/they. You can’t touch him/her/it/they. You can’t smell him/her/it/they. The ONLY thing that makes any god (Christian or otherwise) real for anyone is simply a belief that it is so.
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Hi Nan! Good to see you back!
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No promises on how long. If my head begins to hurt again (from banging it against the wall), I’ll go back into hiding. 😉
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I took that quiz over at xchristian or whatever website. Was disappointed that by the third question I had figured out that every answer is wrong. It is an excise pointing out discrepancies in scripture.
Also read the article about Jesus being a manifestation of Christianity and not the other way around. I wasn’t too impressed with it either.
FWIW
MATT
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Yes, Nan – I read and bookmarked it – thought about offering it to Kathy, but decided not to waste my time.
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I also found it interesting, Nan, that Paul doesn’t mention the water-into-wine, walking -on-water, feeding 5000, or even the virgin birth. The gospels weren’t written until well after Paul’s time, yet Paul knew Peter and several of the other actual disciples, but somehow the miracle stories didn’t emerge until the gospels were written, well after Paul’s time. The implication is that Paul, Peter, and the other disciples who were acquainted with Paul, seemed to know nothing about the miracles of the gospels. I view that as a pretty strong indictment against the gospel’s miracles.
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Interesting how stories change as time passes … yet it’s all “true” because it’s in the bible. End of discussion.
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“That is only fair.. but again, I would just like a little assurance that it’s objective.”
So are you saying that the Limbaugh book is “objective” and “unbiased”?
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“Re: your comment — ” … this IS supported by scripture..” Please provide the chapter(s) and verse(s), Kathy.”
Keep asking until she does, Nan – it’s time she started answering our questions or got off the board and quit wasting our time.
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Anaivethinker
The point of Yahusha’s statement was that they are all “brethren”. Nobody should be called father, rabbi, shepard. There was never supposed to be a church hierarchy. Messiah did not come to establish a new church. Paul set up the Christian church, and demanded wages. He also said the elders are worthy of double honor, which was a reference to money. This was against the teaching of Messiah.
I don’t know how familiar you are with tithe, but the tithe you pay in church is not found in any scripture except Paul’s. By two our three witnesses shall a matter be confirmed, even according to Paul. The tithe was for the Levites. They received the tithe because they had no inheritance in the land, and we’re responsible for the Israelites spiritual welfare. Their job was to work in the temple. This was their pay.
Since there is no temple today, we do not pay a tithe. This doesn’t mean we are exempt from feeding the poor or caring for the widow.
Paul taught a different gospel. Not the gospel messiah taught.
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Kathy, I get the feeling that when you say “objective” you mean “Christian”. Maybe I’m wrong, but you do give of that impression.
Any time someone has suggested a book for me to read, I read it. It’s only after that that I’m able to determine if it was objective or not. Presumably, those who suggested the book thought it was objective, but that doesn’t mean I would come to the same conclusion.
When I suggested you read Thomas Paine’s Age of Reason, it’s because I think he’s being objective. In fact, you should too, since the only source he uses is the bible. You may not agree with him at the end, but it would be hard to say he’s not objective.
Another book that would be excellent for you to read, either before or after Limbaugh’s, is Bart Ehrman’s Jesus, Interrupted. Ehrman is a highly respected New Testament scholar, and nothing in his book is considered controversial by scholars, though most lay people are unfamiliar with the information it covers. He’s definitely objective.
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“The truth is always true, so if you are right there is no reason not to test all things.”
I think she believes, Laurie, that “testing” gives her god the impression that she lacks faith.
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Incidentally, no one in the NT taught about tithes, even Paul. He talked about giving, but not about tithes in particular. Most Christians don’t realize that.
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Be fair arch. Paul didn’t know the messiah, because they never met, and Peter and James were both against Paul.
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Why did you say you were sorry arch?
Because I got hit in the head?
Better not apologize or I might think you actually have a soul!😉
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