Thought this was a great article. I haven’t researched it to the degree that this author has, so I can’t speak to the complete accuracy of what he says. But he makes a great case, and it’s the same view I’ve held for a while.
The ancient Persians had a significant impact upon some of the core myths that underscore Judaism and Christianity. Among other things, Judaism and Christianity owe thanks to the Persian priests of Zoroaster for the light versus darkness motif, the belief in an impending apocalypse, and the messianic dogma. But above all, both Jews and Christians should thank Persia for the Devil himself. I think it’s fair to say that had they not adopted this fictitious character from the Persians, they might not have succeeded with such ease in persuading and maintaining their frightened and superstitious flocks.
The religion of Zoroaster, or Zarathustra, received its name from a Magian Priest by the name of Zoroaster (Greek)/Zarathustra (Persian), who was a loyal servant of the “one true” Persian God Ahura Mazda, or Ormuzd. Ormuzd was commonly referred to as the “The Holy Spirit” in the pre-Christian portions of the Avesta.(1) This…
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Finding Truth 
@William
I’m of half mind about this child abuse label.
If a parent was taught and believe that one should pray to god when you are sick, and didn’t bring the kid to the doctors when the kid is suffering from diabetes because “Jesus will banish the demons causing diabetes”, is this child abuse? Can we prosecute the parent for thinking like this despite him growing up and believing it to be true?
Past case law says yes in certain states in the US, and similarly applies in most of the developed world.
So where do we draw the line with regards to parents belief vs their actions? I do think that if it’s been established without doubt that religion is bunk, there’ll be a high chance that society will deem it child abuse to teach religion to kids especially when it interferes with a kid’s education.
That doesn’t necessarily mean we will need to police and force people to not believe, just that when they are older they can believe whatever they want, just leave the kids alone.
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I never suggested that the police should take Christian children away from their parents who teach them to fear Hell. But threatening your child with being burnt alive for disobeying a person/Being in authority, IS abuse.
The doctrine of a literal Hell is evil. Teaching children this evil story is abuse.
Period.
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Except it isn’t as cut and dry as you’re trying to suggest, nonsupernaturalist… even if you end your comment with, “period.”
But regardless, people teach their children what they think is right to teach them. If they think their religion is correct, then of course they teach that to their children. Whether that’s good or bad, whether we call that “abuse” or not.
But I just find it difficult to lump a parent teaching their own children about their religion in with punching a baby in the face or molesting a toddler in a public restroom stall – those are examples of abuse. teaching your kid about hell isn’t in that category.
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@ william,
I absolutely agree with you regarding physical abuse … but would it not be considered emotional abuse when a child is threatened with the burning fires of a hell? Especially when it’s done to ensure they “behave themselves”? Certainly it’s not “visible” — it’s not going to result in any physical scars — but it is going to affect their psyche and will be a part of their subconsciousness for many years to come.
Teaching a child about one’s religious beliefs is one thing. Threatening them with hell is an entirely different matter. JMO
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Sure, I mean I see where everyone is coming from, but I just don’t agree.
If a person believes that their religion is true and that part of their religion involves a danger of hell fire, then they’ll certain teach that to their kids. Why wouldn’t they? just like if I think the kids arent safe unless they lock the door, I’ll tell them to lock the door, even if now they feel more scared of whatever potentials lurk outside that may want to come inside to get them and cause them harm.
But parents also teach their kids about dangers of firearms, playgrounds, power tools or whatever – and there are so many variations on how that can be done, too many opinions on the appropriate way to educate, either going too far or not far enough.
I was taught about hell fire. Sure it impacted me, but it didn’t damage me any more than anything else does. “Damage” is part of the aging process anyways and I think we get way too carried away with it all. Maybe some people are too damage prone.
And then I think it gets too tedious to keep up with. Not all science is even fact, but theories that continue to change and some are better than others, so science camp theory A thinks that Science camp theory B is wrong, and if believed, could influence someone in the wrong way, and vise versa, and then each camp thinks the other is “abusive” if taught to children because it negatively influence them, etc, etc. It begins to seem silly.
It just gets weird. Hell has been taught for a long time. If it’s abusive, it’s to a degree that’s negligible…. which seems counter to what abuse means.
I think it’s wrong to teach because I think it’s not real. But I don’t think it’s abuse, or criminal, or whatever – I just disagree that it’s an actual place or an actual threat.
We all think there are consequences of doing wrong, some just think there’s a bad place for bad people after you die, but we all think there’s reasons to avoid being bad.
I think teaching kids that hunting is wrong, is itself wrong. I think keeping kids in the dark about where meat comes from is wrong, and while I think those things can negatively affect a child, even setting them up for a potential damaged psyche later on, I still don’t think it’s abuse. I think some bad feelings are just part of life and that we may as well say storm clouds are bad.
I think we’d have more luck discussing logical problems of hell and actual problems with the bible and I think telling a bible believer that teaching their children about hell is “abuse” will carry as much positive influencing power as a believer telling us that we “just want to rebel against god” or “righteousness” or whatever. It doesn’t mean anything to me, it doesn’t provoke me to think, “hey, maybe I’m wrong about all of this, because this guy I don’t really know, who believes what “I know” to be truth is actually wrong, says that my view is “bad.””
It doesn’t work that way. So I don’t think teach children about hell is abusive and I don’t think it’s persuasive to bible believers, so I really don’t see why it’s worth saying.
But I can agree to disagree.
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If you get where everyone is coming from, have thought long and hard about what it’s like to produce emotionally traumatized kids ( even if you managed to shrug it off) who grow into adults, m any of whom eventually need therapy, have researched and found the medical evidence that supports the assertion that this is abuse, yet still disagree , then I’m sorry , William you are nothing but a Dickhead.
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LOL, people need therapy because they were taught about hell?
This is part of what i hate about the world, everyone is becoming too stupid or too weak or both. Maybe we should have the courage to question the goofy religions we’ve been raised into. maybe we should also be tough enough to not let one of those goofy teachings traumatize and damage us so badly.
I can be a dickhead. I’m not proud of that. It’s something I really try to work on, really, but c’mon – people are too prone to fall into the corner and weep about their own misfortunes. GET UP! Everyone has misfortunes in their life. We all have hardships, heartbreaks and we all endure stupid and hurtful shit. If you’re traumatized because you’re afraid of the dark, or because you once thought hell was real, then maybe you’re just weak.
People need to get over themselves and look around.
I think saying that a parent teaching their children about hell is abuse, is really just an “Emperor’s New Clothes” way of trying to trick people out of their religion and I don’t think it works.
It could be a dickhead move to tell a christian that they’re abusing their children by telling them that hell is real.
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Well, here I am, back from a nice, relaxing vacation with the family and as far as answering any of the previous questions, I just got to thinking: What’s the point?
1) William seems to be doing a very nice job of addressing the whole “child abuse” issue (even though Ark still called him a potential Dickhead (nice capitalization there, Ark)
2) I did a fair amount of research and looking around at the Human Genome Project and peripheral issues, but when it came up that I should only look into, “proper scientific sites and not fundamentalist crap or evangelical sites”, I got to thinking that I had no idea what “type” of sites I had been researching, and besides, the definition of “proper” seems to be as individualistic as the person reading.
3) As far as belief in this or that issue, I believe in the first five words of the Bible, “In the beginning God created…” So what? Many on here don’t. I have no problem with that. Anything written after those first five words is kind of a moot point though as far as “belief”. In fact, this ties in with what I said about interpretation. The only thing that I can truly tell you about my belief is that I don’t believe in “surety”. I’m not sure. So I believe in the first five words of the Bible, I could be wrong! *gasp* Yes, I question, I doubt, and I rage at my God from time to time. But nothing in my life so far has led me to walk away. There are many people on here who have. I get that, and I can’t tell you you’re wrong for feeling as you do. And, Ark, I can’t speak for God as to why he does or doesn’t intercede or answer prayers. Maybe that’s one of the things that makes me different from other Christians who’ve come on here and tried to evangelize (including the earlier me), I don’t know. All I know is that I enjoy the conversations here, very few of which I actually get involved with. Some insights I take to heart. Some I dismiss. Don’t we all? I’m not here to convince or debate. Any answer I give concerning belief will probably not come from the Bible anyway, but from my life. If you’re not satisfied with that, that’s not my problem, I’ll just keep coming back to the fact that I’m not here to convince or debate. I respect your positions here. I only expect that in return (and to a large extent have received it, so thank you all.) But, if I can’t get that, or if it’s conditional or earned (I’m looking at you, Ark), I also “believe” that’s not my problem.
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@william … I don’t know you, but in past readings, I’ve enjoyed your comments and perspective, even though we may not always agree. However, I have to take issue with a remark you made in your most recent comment: People need to get over themselves and look around.
To me that’s such a smug, unsympathetic, and thoughtless remark. Perhaps YOU have the wherewithal to face life and all that it throws at you, but not everyone has this same strong resolve … not everyone is able to just pick up and move on. In fact, there are many who have suffered greatly from the burden and “shit” that religion (i.e., Christianity) has put upon them. And for many of them, it started at a very early age.
Personally, I experienced comparatively minimal effects from leaving the faith. But I’m not everyone, and when I read about what some deconverts went through, I thank my lucky stars that my transition was comparatively easy.
IOW, william, try a little tenderness.
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Nan, point taken, but please keep in mind, it’s hard to be tender after being called a dickhead… even if the label isn’t completely wrong – I love Ark, and can’t get mad at him.
Believe it or not, I sympathize a great deal with people. I have lived a very cushy life, but while on my travels with the Army, I’ve seen some people who truly suffer, and among those, most had no other choice but to get up and keep going, and they seemed to do so without production.
I grew up in a very strict religious house. I was spanked with belts and wooden spoons and switches and hands regularly and also taught about a hell that was real, that was eternal, terrifying and excruciating. I refuse to believe that I am just some sort of emotional tough guy who can endure things that most cannot, especially having seen others who’ve experienced far worse and seem to get along just fine.
I want to help those who need help. I feel bad for people who feel bad, but the truth is, the help that many people need, is to remind them that everyone goes through bad things, and that they just need to deal with it.
Think about Bambi. He was shot, being chased by hunters and the forest was on fire. he laid down, which makes a lot of sense, since he had been shot. And then think about the mind game of being hunted while your world is being burned… man, that’s crazy and lot to endure. But here comes Bambi’s dad, like a jerk, and just yells at him, “GET UP, BAMBI!”
It probably seemed harsh, and let’s ignore the fact that bambi’s dad had no harms, so he couldn’t help carry bambi out, but the only real solution was to tell Bambi that you have 2 options: 1) get up and move on, or 2) sit there, which would only keep him in his problem.
Some of this may come, not only from parents and grandfathers who demanded toughness, but also coaches from sports, and Army Drill Sergeants and/or other NCO’s or Officers – circumstances where you were constantly goaded to farther than you thought you could, to push beyond what you thought your limits were – maybe that’s one distinction, i just don’t know, but I do think that “toughness” is a virtue that is largely forgotten and undervalued.
So yeah, I think that getting up and looking around, you’ll see that others have it bad and a lot of times much worse, so if they can get up and go, then you’ll see that you have no good excuse not to.
Instead, I think we’ve let ourselves be conditioned to think that we’re supposed to lay down and play dead. Conditioned to think that if we feel bad, then we must be very bad off and need help, when the reality is that while it may not be easy, and while it may take a lot effort, we are usually very capable of getting up and putting one foot in front of the other.
This seems like a first world problem. All throughout history people have had to cope with the possibility of Hell, but also much more death, disease, famine, hunger and all the other bad stuff than we do… but here we are, living cushy lives in our AC, perusing FB on our smartphones, but now need lots of emotional help because our parents told us there was a hell… I just have a hard time feeling too sorry for this person. Lost a limb? Lost a child? Spouse cheat on you? molested by your uncle? dipped in boiling water and locked in the closet? These are bad things, but being taught about hell is not up there with these, as unfortunate as it may be.
Maybe there’s a specific way you can teach on of hell that you’re all saying is “abuse,” but what I believe was said was that a parent who teaches their children about hell, is abuse. It’s not.
Have tenderness? Sure, even for Christians who teach their children about the religion they believe is true.
PS – I really do like you guys, Ark, Nan and nonsupernaturalist. I really don’t mean to be a dickhead or unsympathetic, this is just how I see it. I’m fine if we don’t agree, but so far I cannot conceded.
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@William
And can’t spell either, it seems.
Yes it is abuse and you can educate yourself, stop continuing to behave like Dickhead and reference the word.
What pisses me off with such an attitude is in days past people did not understand PTSD and I am sure many sufferers were told to ”toughen up”.
Try this site.
@Kent.
proper scientific sites are those that do not have any Christian leanings or affiliations. ie Biologos.
Once again, just what are you here for then?
Tell me, Kent, which god are you talking about? Does he have a name? Can you tell me his name?
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@William
Religious Trauma Syndrome.
http://journeyfree.org/rts/
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Ark, if your best argument is to call someone who disagrees with you a “dickhead,” then maybe your position isn’t as grand as you’re trying to suggest.
So. You’re saying that if a Christian parent teaches their child about he’ll, then that is abuse?
You’re also saying that these children can get PTSD from this teaching?
But what you find absurd, is for someone to suggest that a person with PTSD from hell teaching abuse, needs to toughen up?
LOL
Is this a joke?
This type of mental and emotional fragility would have evolved out of mankind had we not fallen into this artificial world, supported by technology. It’s weakness of will and resolve, and it’s sort of silly, like getting PTSD from the dark.
Yeah, I can’t be the only one who finds this as trivial, weak and lame.
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@William, I agree with your earlier argument that if a Christian parent truly believes that ‘Hell’ awaits non believers then warning their children is a loving thing to do. That is the real dilemma of the issue.
@Ark, much as I appreciate your contributions I agree with William that calling someone a ‘dickhead’ detracts from your otherwise thoughtful comments. To the outsider the person who resorts to abuse implies that they are losing the argument, so it becomes an own goal.
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@William
Er … where did I mention that children suffered PTSD? I would have thought it was obvious this referred to war veterans and the fact this syndrome was in the past not recognised?
Maybe you ought to sharpen your reading skills? Or at least attempt a bit of critical thinking?
Yes, I think this qualifies as a dickhead comment of note.
And did you even bother to read the link? Here it is again. Just in case you feel the urge to stretch yourself just a little.
An excerpt; just in case you find it a little too intellectual to take in.
Cycle of Abuse
The doctrines of original sin and eternal damnation cause the most psychological distress by creating the ultimate double bind. You are guilty and responsible, and face eternal punishment. Yet you have no ability to do anything about it.
http://journeyfree.org/rts/
@Peter
If one takes into consideration William’s initial foray into this conversation and his insensitive dismissal of the very real damage done through religious indoctrination then he fully deserves the title.
As this week saw the opening of Ken Ham’s Ark Encounter we now have a glaring example of how religious indoctrination sets out to warp minds of kids and their equally warped parents.
That it can produce individuals such as William who are, for all intent and purpose, blind to this reality is quite bewildering.
Under the circumstances , being labelled a Dickhead should be the least of his worries and maybe he should be acknowledging the problem and thank me for giving him a metaphorical kick in the arse!
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Ark, i’m not the intellectual giant that you are, but surely someone of your cognitive powers and william-surpassing intelligence can understand my aloofness, having suffered the abuse of being taught about hell.
If I missed your PTSD reference to combat soldiers, and mistook it for a PTSD reference to children who’d been taught about hell because due to my primitive reading comprehension, or maybe because the present discussion pertains to children being abused by being taught about hell; that, and being busy, I read through these quickly.
If the mistake was mine, I’m sorry… but i also asked for clarification. So I’m not sure the foul was that egregious. Maybe you just get upset easily, which is why i forgive you.
But let’s say I agree with you, that teaching hell is real, actual abuse, and that saying some people need to toughen up is also somehow wrong and silly – what now?
Nothing.
Christians aren’t trinked into disbelieving their religion.
Child services won’t go “prorect” the victims.
Children are still taught about he’ll.
Legislation defining doctrines of hell as abuse aren’t being made.
So, smart guy, sure, let’s call it abuse. Now, nothing’s changed, Kent and other Christians still teach their children what they believe to be true, with no concern for ark’S opinions on it, you’ll still think that I’m being insensitive while simultaneously being insensitive to a Christian’s love and care for their own children.
Also, this is a blog discussion had mostly among anonymous strangers. There’s no real reason to get so upset and resort to keyboard tough guy.
Plus, in your mind, I’m a victim of abuse. Have some compassion, you heartless monster:)
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How am I blind to my reality?
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I learned about Hell as a kid and I grew up in a very laissez-faire Anglican environment and didn’t afford it any credibility at all.
However, in strict fundamentalist homes Hell is indoctrinated as very real indeed.
What is odd is you still seem to be attempting to hand wave the problem.
That people like Kent will venture onto a site like this and merrily admit to teaching his kids that Hell is very real and is proud to do so and this doesn’t seem to even register on your radar is also odd.
I wonder at what point do you draw the line as far as religious indoctrination goes?
Maybe we should embrace the Ken Ham’s of the world as wonderful examples of diversification?
And why not embrace all other forms of Evangelical Fundamentalism; ID, Creationism, YEC and also acknowledge that maybe ISIS really do have a point and there is a real genuine place for thngs like Sharia Law.
And it’s also right to allow kids to espouse hate about Jews/Muslims/infidels etc?
One you allow religion into the mix you open the lid of Pandora’s box.
I wrote, this reality.
Read it again …. slowly.
And your throwaway line ….
…means you get to keep the Dickhead badge a while longer.
Hurrah for you!
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Ark,
Looks like I’m not the only one who suffers from reading comprehension deficits.
I don’t condone religion, and I think it’s well and good to show it as fiction as well as show all its problems, but what I have said is that placing the label of abuse onto the teaching of hell from parent to child is an unhelpful exaggeration.
Hope that helps
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Then are you suggesting those who are involved in therapy are shamming?
And what exactly would you call it if not psychological abuse?
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I don’t really know, but I wouldnt assume they’re shamming, but would suspect that theyre
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Hm, on cell phone and don’t know how that posted….
I think maybe they actually feel bad in some way, but feeling bad over things doesn’t mean you really need therapy.
Like if, and I’m just tossing this out as some random example, not based on anything whatsoever, but say you called someone a “dickhead” several times, and that person got their feelings hurt.
I could sympathize with them and understand that. I wouldn’t think they’re pretending to have hurt feelings, but if they felt like their world was crushed and needed therapy, I’d say they’re making it more of a thing that it really is, and they need to get over themselves and get on with life.
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Ah, so you read the link I provided … twice…. and presumably disagree with it.
As such religious trauma is a recognized medical condition on what (professional) grounds do you dismiss it?
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I haven’t read your link yet. So I’m not dismissing it, I’m just dismissing the idea that teaching about hell is abuse.
And I’m saying that if a person needs therapy for being taught about hell, then they’re fragile. Maybe that’s not their fault. Maybe they actually lack the faculties to carry on, but even so, it’s still fragile
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Ah, so I posted the link twice, didn’t read it, but felt clued up enough to continue to dismiss it?
And you still wonder why I bandy around the term Dickhead.
Oh well… when you’ve had the time to read it, get back to me and maybe we can discuss it?
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