Thought this was a great article. I haven’t researched it to the degree that this author has, so I can’t speak to the complete accuracy of what he says. But he makes a great case, and it’s the same view I’ve held for a while.
The ancient Persians had a significant impact upon some of the core myths that underscore Judaism and Christianity. Among other things, Judaism and Christianity owe thanks to the Persian priests of Zoroaster for the light versus darkness motif, the belief in an impending apocalypse, and the messianic dogma. But above all, both Jews and Christians should thank Persia for the Devil himself. I think it’s fair to say that had they not adopted this fictitious character from the Persians, they might not have succeeded with such ease in persuading and maintaining their frightened and superstitious flocks.
The religion of Zoroaster, or Zarathustra, received its name from a Magian Priest by the name of Zoroaster (Greek)/Zarathustra (Persian), who was a loyal servant of the “one true” Persian God Ahura Mazda, or Ormuzd. Ormuzd was commonly referred to as the “The Holy Spirit” in the pre-Christian portions of the Avesta.(1) This…
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Finding Truth 
Ooops, I had better qualify that…
You dismiss the notion that teaching Hell is abuse.
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You could post the link 1000 times, but since my world doesn’t revolve around you and your reading recommendations, I’ll get still just get to it when it’s convenient for me.
Also, like if unclee shares a link on how prayer is helpful to you, one article probably isn’t enough to sway our opinions about some things.
Does your article conclude that teachings on hell is abuse? Their research conclusively supported that it’s abuse, or that it makes some people feel bad?
If making people feel bad is abuse, then you’re the most abusive person here.
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As a general rule of thumb, I only call people who behave like dickheads, dickheads.
I certainly wouldn’t indoctrinate someone with this and would never ever use it on a child.
Maybe you are unable to see the difference?
Maybe you lack any sort of empathy? Would you like me to drum up someone who is in actual therapy?
Perhaps you could laugh in her face when she tells you the trouble she has been through?
Maybe you could demonstrate to her how to ”toughen up”?
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Sure, if you think it would be helpful, although I wouldn’t laugh in her face.
Good grief, why would I do that?
But I was raised in house where hell was taught as real and terrible, so I could relate.
But I mean seriously, between the two of us, I’m the dickhead? Lol, I thought you were joking this whole time, but I’m beginning to think you’re really trying to hurt my feelings.
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Petulance too? It gets better.
Maybe you ought to read back and remind yourself of your initial unqualified disparaging remark re: abuse?
You feel compelled to continue to dismiss the notion of abuse yet are truculent when asked why you have not bothered to read the link, whether posted twice or ”1000 times” ….
UncleE has had an agenda from the off. Furthermore his or any one else’s links to prayer are unsubstantiated superstitious bullshit based upon a spurious worldview, one that you should be very familiar with, so why the Hell (sic) would I want to read any links about prayer?
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Joking? About what? The abuse?
You don’t strike me as one who could empathise with a victim of religious abuse so why would you believe I was really trying to hurt your feelings?
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I don’t care if you read them or not.
Your comments are often amusing and sometimes insightful and informative, but I dont value you as thoughtful person. Because the basic concept that your message is less, not better, served when ridiculing your intended audience, is completely lost on you. It’s a simple and basic truth, yeah you never seem to understand it, instead prefer to act like a 12 year old in a lunch room.
As a result, I kinda take your stuff with a grain of salt anyways.
So, when you try to force the idea that parents are abusive for teaching their children about hell, it shouldn’t be a surprise that it’s not convincing.
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Lol
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@William.
Research: Religious Trauma Syndrome.
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It sounds funny, admittedly, but I will. I promise.
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In your research, has it shown that teaching on hell is harmful or can be harmful?
Does it show that teaching on hell alone is harmful or when coupled with other things?
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*Smile*
I think you adopt a rather narrow view, William. Maybe it’s because of the indoctrination you suffered?
Those of a religious bent (unklee for example) who venture onto religious blogs and/or hold any sort of societal influence deserve to be shown up for what they are and why their particular religious based worldview has no place in society.
Would you really want ken am to teach your kids?
Religious people who are genuinely seeking alternate answers to the problems they encounter with faith-based doctrine often visit such sites and ask questions because they are unable to voice such questions/fears among their highly indoctrinated religious peers/friends family etc.
Some merely lurk and read.
Those that come here ( and to my blog and others) to ”discuss” (unklee, Brandon, Kent etc) religion have no genuine intention whatsoever of reviewing their faith and this has been demonstrated time and time again.
Any atheist that that has ever interacted with unklee, Colorstorm, Godsmanforever, Silence of the Mind, Brandon,Insanitybytes,Tricia etc will know this. Ask Nan.
So while some prefer the Two Step or the Shuffle and believe they are good at it,they invariably never get to lead in the dance. For better or worse, I am a lousy dancer and always seem to step on their toes. Some like sugar some don’t.
So it goes ….
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@William.
Others are following this thread and might balk at some of your seemingly callous responses.
Just a thought.
For those who are following this thread (as Ark mentioned) might be interested in this debate:
http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-scaring-young-children-with-stories-of-hell-child-abuse
Interesting perspectives on both sides.
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What I find most fascinating about this discussion is the plain and simple fact that there is no hell. It’s rather astonishing that both believers AND non-believers consider this a real place.
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Interesting indeed.
I was going to ask Charity to visit and discuss therapy( not actual sessions, of course) with William, but I recall she was uncomfortable over the topic on Clear Lens so I think it best I don’t.
However, I think you might relate to her better than I. If you think she might be up to it?
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*Smile* I sincerely hope you don’t lump me in with those that believe it is a real place!
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First — re: Charity. I think rather than ask her to join the discussion, perhaps you could link to the post where she discusses her experiences. Since she’s already “bared her soul,” I don’t think we should ask her to do it again.
Second — Absolutely not! But truly, I* find it more than amazing how many non-believers discuss the topic as if it were a real place. SMH
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Do you have the link, Nan? That way William can pop over and read it himself if he is so inclined.
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Hmmm. Thought it was on your blog. I did a search on her name on mine and didn’t come across any comments related to hell. The only substantive comment she made was on my post about Paul (a year ago). Plus, I think she follows (or at least reads from time to time) the posts on Nate’s blog so perhaps she’s already seen this discussion?
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Atheists often feel obliged to enter such discussions with believers by using their terms to even start a discussion. Look at Kent’s reaction.
If the language/ terminology used is not what the believer can relate to then dialogue often falters at the outset. I think it was Sam Harris or someone similar who expressed this view?
In this specific case, William doesn’t believe in Hell so we both realise we are talking about fictitious nonsense. Only the effects of teaching this as real are in dispute.
Now, with Kent, who believes it emphatically, no $200, no second chances and no returns, one would have to explain why it is nonsense and talk about Gehenna, the Valley on Hinnom, Hades, Sheol and how Jesus never taught it nor the Jews etc etc.
He probably would not accept this, but one is always mindful of the lurkers.
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Ark I do think you have been quite harsh in your judgement of William on this post.
I have followed Williams comments for some time and consider him to be a thoughtful person who has much of value to say on these topics.
Perhaps I just have some empathy for William as I see he has taken a similar journey to me. You might find his story interesting:
https://gonewilliam.wordpress.com/about/
I just encourage you to ease up on him.
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I think he enjoys the banter. Not once has he expressed any genuine empathy toward the very real problem religious abuse causes children.
His opening salvo was contentious and somewhat dismissive.
Neither has he expressed any real interest concerning what is acknowledged a genuine medical condition. His attitude has largely been along the lines of: ‘well, we all suffer ups and downs from time to time, so buck up!’
He even wrote:
No one forced him to comment and I am presuming he is old enough to understand that differences of opinion – sometimes quite heated – will arise over such topics.
I can hardly see how a subject like Debunking the Devil will not get some people’s dander up.
Helping kids to become ”tough”, self-reliant, independent and other positive virtues we try to instill
is no a simple matter, and for some children, having to contend with a massive guilt burden of never being good enough and truly believing they will be going to Hell for not shaping up must be … well, hell.
Truly, I am not surprised in the least that some kids go off the rails.
Yes I understand that if the parents truly believe it then blame is difficult to assign, but this in no way lessens the level of abuse, or the ultimate responsibility.
Therefore to hand wave this away is tantamount to tacitly saying, ”So what?”
It is no wonder the number of adults who still believe crap like this.
I think you need to rather discuss this with a few people who went through this trauma and see how they feel about it.
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Ark,
You typed,
“*Smile*
I think you adopt a rather narrow view, William. Maybe it’s because of the indoctrination you suffered?”
I don’t know for sure. What do you attribute your religious fervor against religion to?
Then you typed,
“Would you really want ken am to teach your kids?”
No, and I’m not sure I see what this has to do with anything. I don’t want you teaching them either. But we weren’t talking about that, we were talking about parents teaching their own children about the religion that they believe is true.
I don’t want you or anyone else deciding what a parent should, or should not teach their own children.
You also said,
“Those that come here ( and to my blog and others) to ”discuss” (unklee, Brandon, Kent etc) religion have no genuine intention whatsoever of reviewing their faith and this has been demonstrated time and time again.”
This could be true, although I’m not sure I’d agree completely. I imagine that some on these blogs, whether believing or nonbelieving, hold unflattering opinions about you as well, so it may not be helpful to tell people what their motives are, or call them names if they disagree with you, as it proves nothing and serves nothing of value. It may be best to stick to the topics and let the facts and let reason rise to the top – but that’s just an opinion.
Then I was surprised to see you type this,
“Others are following this thread and might balk at some of your seemingly callous responses.
Just a thought.”
Of course you’re right and I know that. I am not as callous as I seem, but I do know that what I have said shock some… but Ark, and seriously I do like you, but you’re typically a jerk on here, LOL, I mean really, so this strikes me as Matt 7:5 example, or the pot lecturing the kettle on being black.
Let’s say you fell down and scraped your knee and I was there to witness it. I’d rush over and ask if you were alright. I may even ask if I could help you up, or ask if I could get you some water or a Band-Aid or whatever, because I know what it’s like to scrape a knee. It stings and burns. There is real pain and it is a real injury.
But, if you laid there screaming, calling me dickhead, and demanding an ambulance, acting like your scraped knee was an amputation, shouting and complaining about how you’ll never walk right again or whining about how much you’re suffering, sure my sympathy may quickly evaporate, because even though I can understand there being some pain, I know it’s nowhere close to an amputation, or a break or a sprain or any other, actually serious injuries.
Being taught about a real, literal hell is commonplace, like a knee scrape on a sidewalk. Sure it stings, sure maybe it would be nice to have a hand to help you up, but if you think this is a terrible injury, then you’re either extremely fragile, or have led a very sheltered and otherwise very cushy life. If I have sympathy for you now, it’s mostly because you’ve likely been spoiled and coddled into this weakness – but you’re still capable of getting up and moving on, even if you think you can’t.
I think that having the rest of us pretend a scraped knee is an awful injury, we’re not actually helping, but just enabling and excusing. I think a knee scrape victim is better served by showing them that they can get up on their own, showing them that everyone else does it and that most everyone else has had the exact same “injury.”
And regardless of how much I value your comments or nan’s or anyone else’s, I will have a hard time shaking this view point. People aren’t weak invalids because they can’t actually go on, but mostly because they only think they can’t.
And you said,
“I don’t believe you thought that question through before posting. Want to have another shot?”
Sure, I guess. Does the link you provided twice show that the teaching on Hell IS harmful or that the teaching on Hell COULD BE harmful? There is a difference.
And
Does it show that the teaching on hell is harmful by itself, or does it take into consideration other factors like how hell is taught, whether positive aspects of religion are focused on less or more, or coupled with other strict and harsh teachings as well? In other words, I’m wondering if you’re saying that Hell is abuse, when in actuality, the entire picture may reveal that hell is harmful only when along with other doctrines and minus a few other aspects, while hell by itself is more like a pebble in an avalanche.
At the moment, I could buy it being one pebble in an avalanche or being like a scraped knee. I’ve been taught about hell. A lot of people I know were taught about a literal hell, so when I hear that a very small percentage actually “suffers” from it, and then using that vast minority to define the entire thing as “abuse,” seems like a desperate stretch. It seems like you hate religion so much that you attack it with a religious fervor, attaching yourself to anything, whether sensible or not, so long as it supports your crusade against it. I disagree with that approach. I didn’t leave religion to jump right into another.
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Peter, I appreciate the support, but it’s alright, really. I know what i am saying about this is unpopular with some, and while I’m not intentionally trying to be the odd man out, i’m not afraid of it either.
I only chimed in when I read Nonsupernaturalist say that parents teaching their children about hell was child abuse. I not only disagree with that statement, I think it only resonates with those who already agree with that view while making those who oppose it, view those who espouse it, as not serious, making it easier to dismiss any points they may have had that were actually good ones.
I just think it’s an unhelpful exaggeration. And I didn’t want to just sit idly by as kent was called an abuser of his own children because Ark might call me names. It’s okay and I’ve been called worse, and somehow don’t get upset when someone calls me a name anyways, nor do I mind having to defend my views and opinions.
But I think Hell is fiction. Even so, I think it can actually sting and can make people scared and can make people feel guilt, so I get the problem with it – I just don’t think those things are inherently bad. I think having high standards or goals can make one feel guilt if they fail to achieve them or fall short of them – does that mean that aspiring to be better is bad because it can lead to guilt?
of course not.
I grew up thinking that most people I knew were going to hell. It wasn’t just Christians who went to heaven, but only the “right kind of christians,” so that meant the majority of people I knew, including close family and friends, were likely going to burn forever in hell. It’s not a comforting thought, but it’s not crippling. I think we can let it be crippling because we have the luxury to. I think in second and third world places, they don’t have the luxury to fret over this stuff, so they get up, put their pants on, and go about their lives because they can. So yeah, I think this is first world problem.
Go watch some kids dying of cancer or starving to death, suddenly the terrors of being taught about hell seems pretty small.
So ark and I see this differently. I’m fine with that, mostly I didn’t want kent called a child abuser without saying something to the contrary.
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